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How "afraid" should we be of sailing?

84K views 391 replies 123 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 · (Edited)
In looking through various forums, there always seems to be a tendency toward and/or against "fear mongering". That is, there is the tendency to focus on disastrous stories, then leverage off those for the sake of the safety debate. Great examples of this are COB stories (which I've been really digging into lately). Then, there's the other end where it's about the fact that you can die stepping off the curb in front of a speeding meteor while getting hit by a lightning...so why worry about it?

The bottom line is that one can never "lose" the safety argument. Safety always wins. So I'm definitely not arguing AGAINST safety.

But, the question I have is this: when considering the type of sailing 99% of the people out there do, do the stats support a "fear mongering" approach to safety? Isn't this sport, all in all, really pretty safe in terms of hours put in vs. fatalities (compared to sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, skiing, etc.)?

ADDENDUM: I'M ADDING MY POST FROM PAGE 3 WHICH BREAKS DOWN SOME OF THE USCG REPORT DATA AND THROWS IN SOME IRONY:

Oh man, I just looked through the numbers in the USCG report provided by k1vsk - and this is going to raise some hackles. First the numbers...then what "seem" to be the take-aways (up for discussion of course):

First, the Executive Summary
• In 2008, the Coast Guard counted 4789 accidents that involved 709 deaths, 3331 injuries and approximately $54 million dollars of damage to property as a result of recreational boating accidents.
• Over two-thirds of all fatal boating accident victims drowned, and of those, ninety (90) percent were not wearing a life jacket.
• Only ten percent of deaths occurred on boats where the operator had received boating safety instruction.
• Seven out of every ten boaters who drowned were using boats less than 21 feet in length.
• Careless/reckless operation, operator inattention, no proper lookout, operator inexperience and passenger/skier behavior rank as the top five primary contributing factors in accidents.
• Alcohol use is the leading contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; it was listed as the leading factor in 17% of the deaths.
• Eleven children under age thirteen lost their lives while boating in 2008. 63% of the children who died in 2008 died from drowning.
• The most common types of vessels involved in reported accidents were open motorboats (43%), personal watercraft (23%), and cabin motorboats (15%).
Now for some crunching - which reveals some very interesting stats:

Of the 709 deaths, here are the top 5 vessel types, making up 614 of that total (leaving 95 deaths for other vessel types):
• Open Motorboat
• Personal Watercraft
• Cabin Motorboat
• Canoe/Kayak
• Rowboat
(note sailboats don't make the cut, but rowboats and canoes do!)
So if you drill down on that a bit, look at the overall accident numbers for boat types:

Number of vessles in accidents per type:
PWC: 1459
Motorboats (open and cabin): 2399
Aux. Sail: 258 (a bit worse than canoes) + 58 for other sail
Pretty small number for sailboats - considering how many total are out on the water crusing, racing, etc. Now what about the deaths involved with these accident figures - and the causes?

Deaths by vessel type:
All sail (25 - 50%+ by drowning)
So out of 709 total deaths, 25 of those happened on sailboats (10% of total sailing accidents involved a fatality). And 40% or so of these deaths were by means other than drowning (the thing we all associate as the most likely threat to our lives) - knocking that number down to 15.

So what are the causes in these deaths?

Primary Contributing Factors of Deaths (in order of impact):
Booze
Hazardous Waters
Passenger/Skier Behavior
Weather
Inexperience/Inattention
Speed
Now, initially I was going to say that because we can't really get actual "speed" out of our boats, that we were off the hook on that. But, other numbers showed that most fatalities happen at low speed! Interesting.

Now let's look at the bodies of water and conditions that are most likely to lead to these fatalities (this is where it starts getting ironic - and I love irony):

Weather & Water Conditions leading to total boating deaths:
Type of Body of Water: Sheltered waters (653), Ocean/Gulf (40), Great Lakes (15)
Water Conditions: Calm (335), Choppy (155), Rough (77), Very Rough (32)
Wind Conditions: Light (298), Moderate (153), Strong (87), Storm (over 25 mph) (23)
Oh lordy, lordy...

And what about the type of vessel most likely to kill you?

Vessel Info:
Less than 16' (292), 16' to 26' (281), 26'-40' (59)
And finally, let's look at the operators in these fatalities:

Operator's Experience (in boat related deaths):
None (7), Under 10h (36), 10h-100h (78), 101h-500h (155), Over 500h (64)

Education of Operator:
Informal (16), State Course (28), US Power Squadroms (4), USCG Aux (6), None (277)
So, taking these statistics into account, am I correct in surmising that,

[IRONY ALERT] statistically speaking, any sailor's best chance at survival is to get 10 or so hours of some informal training on how to sail, take a 40' vessel into the open ocean in rough to very rough conditions, wear a pfd, don't drink, stay on the boat (regardless of make or year), sail REALLY fast, and, in all probability, you'll be just fine?

It seems the most dangerous sailing out there is sailing a small boat on a sheltered body of water in calm conditions. Could that be right?

Surely that's not it.
[/IRONY ALERT]

I just want to make it known what we lake sailors have now been vindicated. We are truly the gnarliest sailors around. Those chumps that make fun of our "duck ponds" just don't have the numbers to back them up.

Thoughts?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Interesting Question Smack,

Statistically, ...it's a very safe sport/activity

also, sailors are the least likely have a fatal accident.

Small boats power boats, 21 feet or less, alcohol use, no life jackets..and no safety training.....are the at risk groups.

Naturally 90% or more of the deaths are from drowning, and they occur on a clear sunny day.

If one stays sober, wears a life jacket, and sails...chances are you'll live a long .....but boring life.....( just kidding)

Here's the stats, that I use in class.

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#4 ·
Smack,

My thought on it is that all of the things you mention are dangerous, so there is no good way to argue against the danger. You can get hurt rock climbing, and you can get hurt sailing, even die, it happens. I think it is best to just face that head on and not try to argue against it when people say it is dangerous, fine, it is dangerous, but we keep sailing anyway. :)

Lawrence of Arabia said:
Lawrence: // puts out a match with his fingers //

Hartley: You'll do that once too often; it's only flesh and blood!

Lawrence: Michael George Hartley; you're a philosopher.

Hartley: And you're balmy!

Potter: // tries to put out a match with his fingers, burning himself //

Potter: Ow! It damn well hurts!

Lawrence: Certainly, it hurts!

Potter: Well, what's the trick then ?

Lawrence: The trick, William Potter, is not minding that it hurts.
 
#9 ·
I can say this, I'm a newer boat owner and I can safely say this. I've rarely been as terrified as I've been trying to navigate my boat down the New River. I know I'm insured and the worst case scenario is I'd sink or damage the boat and swim ashore...but not being in control and having the elements drive your fate is a terrifying feeling.
 
#10 ·
Safety is something you should take seriously, but not to the point that it prevents you enjoying your chosen hobby/sport. When I used to rock climb, I had proper training, I paid for quality gear and I made sure I knew how to use it. Never had an accident, never let an accident happen to someone else I was climbing with, but always had great fun. Same goes for sailing. As for fear, well, that's part of the fun isn't it? The first time you dunk a rail, the first time that the collision seems inevitable etc.
 
#11 ·
Isn't this sport, all in all, really pretty safe in terms of hours put in vs. fatalities (compared to sports like rock climbing, mountain climbing, skiing, etc.)?
As in all things in life, equip, expect and plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Relaying the facts of a actual incident isn't fear mongering, constantly telling people they are going to die if they leave port on a friday with banannas on board is
 
#12 ·
Well now if we're going to get superstitious

Well now if we're going to get superstitious you can leave port on Friday with a load of bananas as long as you have a topless woman on the bow to calm the waters :D

You think those old square riggers had topless figureheads for no reason?

Jim

 
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#13 ·
For the sailing that most of us do i.e. coastal or lake, I think it is pretty safe.

Basically if you stay on the boat you are likely to be just fine. I have been sailing actively on Lake Huron since the mid 70s. While it is certainly not the ocean I think my experience is typical. I can think of three fatalities in that time and they all involved someone falling off their boat.

I am starting to take safety harness etc. a lot more seriously, of course I am getting older (maybe already there?) and sail with my adult son and daughter and their numerous friends who I am of course responsible for.

The hazard that I wonder at the most, but am amazed at how seldom a sailor is seriously hurt, is lightning. I cannot count the times we have been in a race with lightning all around us and no boats got it. It does happen, but a lot less frequently that I would expect.

Some thing about a 50 foot aluminum pole rising up from a very flat surface ??
 
#17 ·
no doubt there's a lot of unanswerable "buts" and "what if's" in sailing and a number of other activities. As a culture, we've become pretty risk averse. The real difference seems to be when one starts sailing/skiing/hockey/cycling/etc... Anecdotally, I'd say the younger you start, the more you're aware of real risks vs. statistical anomalies that are 'threat elevated' into defacto norms by adult learners.
 
#19 ·
I have found the stupid stuff gets you like slipping at the dock OR falling at the mooring from a big boat wake :)

People in general seem to have a LOT of reasons NOT to use PFDs ?

Most of the other stuff like storms you new pretty well in advance that there was something on the way and took the risk

For example in the last few years of Wed Night racing there was a high instance of thunderstorm activity and we chose to go out BUT you would pretty much NOT sail LI Sound as there is a chance 6 days a week
 
#21 ·
Sailing and Safety - a Personal Matter

I have always believed you are personally responsable for your own safety when you leave the dock. Being able to deal with the s**t that happens out there is the challenge, the raison d'etre of sailing. To many of us it is a metaphor for life. If something bad happens, you either deal with it or you lose - sometimes your life! So how safe you are when sailing is a reflection of how well you prepare for life in general. A safe sailor is an immpecable person. I always admired the sentiment of the Eric & Susan Hiscock, the trend-setting cruisers of the previous generation, who didn't believe in carrying a marine VHF on their boats, lest they be tempted to call for outside help in a tight spot, thus inconveniencing or endangering oher mariners. Safety is first and first and foremost it is a personal responsability. Don't leave the dock if you think otherwise...which will make it safer for the rest of us.
 
#22 ·
My two cents:

cent #1: yeah it's pretty damn safe. Average conditions are safe and among sailors, average behavior in adverse conditions is usually safe (is usually: stay home).

cent #2: the proportion of our discussions that revolves around safety is significantly larger than the proportion of our sailing time during which are in danger. There's a rubbernecking effect; disasters attract our attention, be it morbid curiosity, a need to show that our knowledge and skill is superior to that of the victim, or a desire to improve our understanding of seamanship by another small delta. One of the goals of a good sailor is good seamanship; how are we going to achieve that if we don't reflect on the dangers at sea?
 
#23 ·
This is one of the unexpected and perhaps unintended consequences of the information age, 3F syndrome- Forums Filled with Fear.
See, content is what feeds the big machine that we are all addicted to, this forum. With no new content, we find something else to read, and the forum dies. Some of us seem to like it here, so we provide content and comment on the content provided by others, and some of us like to pass on our hard earned experience hoping that others can learn from our mistakes. Since everyone has some advice to offer, if not firsthand, then a story they heard on the dock, just like around any campfire, the cautionary tales are the ones that get the most attention and we end up with the growth of fear.
Besides, nobody ever bothers to document when things went RIGHT, because that is how things are supposed to go!
A thread titled "Had a great sail today, nothing broke and nobody got hurt"
would be a yawner.
A thread titled "Engine died, I fixed it, everything is fine." would get five views.
Those threads kill forums. BFS and bonehead threads build content. Near-death and stupidity sells, baby!
 
#36 ·
BFS and bonehead threads build content. Near-death and stupidity sells, baby!
Wait a second...what the.....

It's great seeing all these various responses. And this is the "+1" post of the day in my opinion...

Afraid ? Of sailing ? Why would you be afraid? I feel safer on the boat.
+1.
 
#24 ·
I love sailing and most of the time regard it as a very safe activity. BUT... there are certainly situations we get into which involve risk, and sometimes those situations are not easily avoidable. Nothing feels better than having come through those situations intact (more or less) and feeling we have wrestled with the nature and won.

Contrary to many of my fellow sailors, though, I suspect that much of the statistical data we read understates the risks, not overstates them. The reason is that the amount of time the average person spends on the water is quite small. When we see statistics for commercial transportation, the meaningful stats are given in deaths or injuries per passenger mile. The stats for boating accidents are usually given as just raw numbers.

On a gorgeous July Sunday in perfect sailing conditions, I can look around the marina or the mooring field and see it filled with boats. Until we know how many hours the average sailor spends on his boats, the raw data tells us little about safety. Even many people who think of themselves as pretty active sailors will add up their hours and find that they are actually under way less than 100 hours per year. And there are a lot less sailors around than one might think. So the overall average presented in the USCG report of approximately 6 deaths per 100,000 vessels of all types tells me little about the safety of sailboats. But I can do some comparison.

Almost all of the Sailnet readers sail boats that qualify as "mechanically propelled." The total of state registered auxiliary sailboats was only about 56,000 in the 16 to 26 foot category and 58,000 over 26 feet. (I know this omits documented vessels, but they are probably lost in the rounding). Thus, a total of a little over 100,000 boats. I suspect many never leave the dock. The total fatalities on boats known to be auxiliary sailboats was shown as 15 in 2008.

So, to my surprise, auxilliary sailboats actually have a higher fatality rate per vessel than the average of all boats, including a lot of people I would have thought to be higher risk -- the fishermen or hunters who regard a boat as transportation, those who know nothing about boats (if they sail they almost have to know something or they can't get under way), those who travel 40 knots in crowded waterways while drinking, etc. Since there are no stats on usage, as opposed to number of boats, I can't get much out of this. What I do get, however, is that the raw numbers are less comforting than I would like.

Will I stop sailing? Not on your life -- or mine I suppose. But I will continue to pay great attention to the safety related threads and try to learn as much as I can from other people's mistakes. After all, I am not only the captain of my fate, I frequently take those I love most aboard.
 
#38 · (Edited)
So, to my surprise, auxilliary sailboats actually have a higher fatality rate per vessel than the average of all boats, including a lot of people I would have thought to be higher risk -- the fishermen or hunters who regard a boat as transportation, those who know nothing about boats (if they sail they almost have to know something or they can't get under way), those who travel 40 knots in crowded waterways while drinking, etc. Since there are no stats on usage, as opposed to number of boats, I can't get much out of this. What I do get, however, is that the raw numbers are less comforting than I would like.
So if I'm understanding these numbers correctly, it means that, in general, sailors are generally more stupid and have far lousier seamanship than drunk stinkpotters?

Holy crap, that's freakin' embarrassing!
 
#25 ·
What scares me more than anything is being tied to the dock. This feeling comes from a sailor who was thrown from his vessel, and yanked back onto it. Scary stuff happens everywhere, and anywhere. Go sailing, and be safe as you can be.......i2f
 
#28 ·
The key for me is "Respect".
Respect the ***** or she will make your life miserable.
The sea at times can be a real *****.
 
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