SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Light weather mains?

6K views 46 replies 25 participants last post by  puddinlegs 
#1 ·
A recent article I "Good Old Boat" tweaked my interest. The author had a sailmaker make him a mainsail out of light nylon spinnaker cloth to be hoisted in light winds. I had thought of this many times while racing and slatting about in big slop with little to no wind. As the article's author pointed out, this can be more damaging to sails than harsher weather.

Let's face it, cruising sailors, unless faced with major crossings where fuel is rationed, will, 99% of the time, drop sails and hoist the iron jenny under light conditions - or drop sails altogether and go swimming or fishing. What if you had a light main that you could hoist and could do as much better than the main as a drifter is an improvement over a genoa? On boats in the 35' or greater area the cloth of a main is 7 oz or better, much to stiff to catch zephyrs. Imagine how 3/4 oz nylon would stay filled in just a few knots of wind.

The two main advantages of the light weather main is that it really save a lot of wear and tear on the main and makes you go much better in those conditions. I can testify, as I am sure we all can, of the unease we feel as the mainsail droops loosely, only to be filled with a bang when a wave rocks the boat and suddenly fills it with the wind created by a roll to one side. Repeat on other side. Repeat again. And again. Etc.

Has anyone out there had experiences with this kind of sail? I'd like to hear from others before having Sailrite design and cut me a kit and spending the time and effort to sew it up. There is also the little problem of putting up another track, though I plan to do that for the trysail anyway.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
The problem with many boats isn't the weight of the sails, but more the drag of the boat. My boat does just fine with its normal main in light conditions, but I've got a lot less drag than most boats... :D
 
#11 ·
SD, multis don't count in this because they don't have the problem monos have. Cats are much more stable so the sail doesn't fill and spill with a bang nearly as much (I said nearly as much because they are not totally immune) as on a monohull. I can see how on a 28' cat this wouldn't be a problem. First, the material the main is made of should be lighter than that of a 40' or 50' boat, so it is closer to a light weather main to begin with. Second, it rocks and rolls less, so again it is less of a wear and tear problem.
 
#3 ·
So, given how expensive it would be to reduce my boat's drag to the point where it's comparable to SD's (and btw, I suspect the inertia of the ballast is probably an even bigger problem than aero- or hydro-dynamic drag at low speeds), maybe talking about alternative mains is not a bad idea :)

So yeah I could see a lighter main being helpful. Other than the hassle of bending on a new main (twice), I don't see any major downsides. However I can see another issue besides cloth weight that affects your ability to fill your main in light air, and that's mast profile. At least on my boat, the mast is quite wide, so airflow has trouble attaching to the luff.

Therefore might it not also be a good idea to find an alternative rig as well? Perhaps hoist your light-air main as a lateen rig with a very narrow spar that wouldn't get in the way of the air so much. On the other hand, it might move the center of effort too far aft and thus produce too much weather helm.

Just some thoughts.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I don't understand how this would be improvement over an Asymmetrical. When I get into light air. I host the 3/4 oz Asymmetrical. If I can't keep the main filled I will douse that. I would not be able to point as high but I can still make progress to windward. In my particular circumstances, I have lazy jacks with a stack pack sail cover. It does not lend itself to changing out the main sail. The Asymmetrical, I can rig and host and have flying in 5 min. Changing a main sail every time you run into light air sounds like a hassle to me.
 
#5 ·
I think a light air main would be better made out of very light dacron. Nylon is going to stretch a lot without much load, making it really hard to trim.

Removing weight in the boat and aloft would be much cheaper (free) and less time consuming. Are you're halyards stripped? Is the bildge dry? Do you have cruising gear aboard when you're just daysailing? How is the rig tuned? Is the bottom faired and burnished?

Also, you'll have to define "light" air. Light in HI is different than Ches Bay "light".
 
#6 ·
You could rig it as a loose footed main. The normal main would be down so it could be hoisted in that sail track. It isn't a high performance sail so a somewhat sloppy rigging isn't that big of a deal.
 
#7 ·
i thought in the article that genieskip is talking about the owner had the sail made from 1.5 ounce material. also the sail was only attached at the head, tack and clew which in the pics shows the main just stowed. the only thing you have to do is move the hoist over to the light air sail after securing the tack and the clew of same. the other thing is you need to have to have a separate out haul for this sail so you can adjust sail shape better i would think. i would think that a 3/4 ounce sail would be to light for this and stand up to popping to often when filled
 
#8 ·
i thought in the article that genieskip is talking about the owner had the sail made from 1.5 ounce material. also the sail was only attached at the head, tack and clew which in the pics shows the main just stowed. the only thing you have to do is move the hoist over to the light air sail after securing the tack and the clew of same. the other thing is you need to have to have a separate out haul for this sail so you can adjust sail shape better i would think. i would think that a 3/4 ounce sail would be to light for this and stand up to popping to often when filled
This makes more sense to me. It's rigged like a storm sail, only for light air.
 
#9 ·
It WAS on a seperate outhaul and attached at the 3 corners only. It also used very light line for halyard and control lines, 3/16 I think. The light-air main was used in conjunction with a spinnaker not in lieu of it.

I think the main reason for the light-air main was the beating the heavier main takes from "slatting" as the OP mentioned. It was an interesting article but the pretty picture of the colorful sails all filled out in light air is the best selling point. White sails are so...white.
 
#10 ·
A lot of good points. Memory could have failed me and it might very well have been 1 1/2 oz nylon (loaned my copy of the GOB to a friend so I couldn't check). You are probably right about the weight of the cloth.

The asymmetrical is for the fore triangle so it really doesn't need to enter in the discussion. The problem is when you have a light sail in the fore triangle and a heavy one aft of that. Yes, you can drop the main, or you could start the engine or take a nap (and I have done all of those - I didn't mean it facetiously). I'm thinking of how to keep sailing when the wind drops to just a few knots.

The sail should be free on the foot and the clew could be attached to one of the reefing lines that on my boat exit the boom at its after end with the other end led to the cockpit. It probably can be free on the luff as well if the halyard can be tensioned good and tight with either wire or spectra at the luff. Or maybe dacron line in the luff so you can tension to control sail shape.

I have my lazyjacks led to blocks on the spreaders and back to the cockpit so I can get them out of the way when hoisting. They could be out of the way when the light air main is flying. The main would still be in the stack pack and out of the way.
 
#12 ·
Would a light weight main be worth the bother? Unlike a genoa, mains are supported along the luff (mast), foot (boom) and leach (battens). So weight isn't as critical as a genoa. To get a more powerful main in light conditions, wouldn't you need to extend the leach? This "chicken head" then forces you into a crane and completely adjustable backstay (for tacking). Is weight aloft really a problem in light air? After all, we work to induce heel in those conditions, not counter act it. Besides, those of us who have gone to spectra or arimid mains have already reduced weight aloft. Finally, it's been my experience that slow moving air molecules are pretty lazy and have a difficult time staying attached to a main sail. Isn't the proper trim for extreme light conditions to tighten the luff and the foot? If the problem is a slating main, isn't the remedy a preventor?
 
#14 ·
It's a really interesting idea, one we had time to think about it while bobbing in the Santa Barbara Channel: we're building a 1oz nylon drifter headsail for just those sorts of days. Our new mainsail is 6.5oz dacron, too heavy for light air but designed for our more-usual 40 kt winds in Wyoming. So to set a free-flying nylon main would be really cool -- think of it as a second asym or Code Zero, behind the first. By letting it fall off to leeward a bit, it won't be as prone to gravity-collapse on a swell (which a preventer won't necessarily prevent). I like it!

No battens, obviously. Backstay & topping lift not an issue, any more than an inner forestay is to an asym. Might put a doubled spectra cord in the luff pocket. Could be really useful on lighter boats up to 60 degrees TWA, and up to 8 kts TWS. At which point you hoist your normal main. Nylon stretches, yes, so shape isn't ideal. But its stronger than dacron for the weight, available in lighter fabric, and wads up tight without damage. Our big drifter will stuff into a compact shoulder bag. On heavy, high-drag boats, I'm not sure drifter sails are useful. But if you could get a boat reaching at 2 kts in 4kts true, that would be worth it!

Also, nylon is cheap and easy to sew & design with. We got enough material for a 145sqft drifter for $50. It should take 8-10 hours to construct. Use the special spinnaker basting tape, you may not even need to sew the main seams. Fun!
 
#45 · (Edited)
On heavy, high-drag boats, I'm not sure drifter sails are useful. But if you could get a boat reaching at 2 kts in 4kts true, that would be worth it!
My experience is contrary to this, which I used to believe was true and traditional wisdom. On my 30,000lb full keeled boat we have used our 1.5oz nylon drifter to great effect. Usually we can go about 2+kts in 4 true, and 1kt in 2kts true. What's more we have even been able to go to weather with the wind slightly forward of the beam. 70-75deg maybe? Not exactly J-boat stuff, but better than a spinnaker.

We now consider our drifter as essential as our storm sail after one fine day when it was blowing 2-3kts true and we were under iron jenny, until it went on strike. We used our drifter and working main and mizzen to sail into a less than idea anchorage. We had only one chance to sail, slightly upwind, over the spot shallow enough to anchor before we would be put on the steep sloping beach. Had we only had a 6.5oz dacron genny, I doubt we would have done so well.

Since our drifter is free leeched (with reinforced leech tape/webbing) we just attach the halyard (leaving the working genoa hanked on) and hoist away, no hanks required. It will also work well once roller furling is installed. Halyard tension is adjusted to wind angle with high tension allowing us to go to weather. We don't sheet it to the main boom either, but rather to some turning blocks at the stern making it easier to use and more of a nylon genoa than a true drifter. It's also great to have aboard because it stuffs into a tiny bag which weighs nothing and is easy to stow, grab and set. We don't see much point in the complexity of a sock arrangement, so we don't bother.

I think the nylon main is a great idea and might just give it a try. I would also fly it free footed and free leeched so that you wouldn't have to install a second track or unbend the main. As stated you wouldn't have the same slatting and it would fill in with a whisper of wind. We love sailing our heavy slow boat in light airs and seem to do quite well, but this sound like it might help us do better. The sail is likely to be cheap, fit in a very small bag, and be easy to deploy. What's not to like?

Off to find that article....

MedSailor
 
#17 · (Edited)
But SF -- cruisers often have different needs than racers, don't they? GOB magazine isn't aimed at a racing audience. For cruisers, just moving the boat, making miles, in an approximate direction is desirable.

For racing, yes this is a stupid sail.:) BUT. Round-the-can racers also don't put reefs in their mainsails. Cruisers do. Racers don't carry storm trysails, yankee jibs, double headsails, whisker poles, drogues, or meaningful ground tackle. Cruisers do. Horses for courses, SF. Lemme give you an example: racers will be using the latest high-tech laminated sails with tubular carbon full battens which will last maybe one season. They don't care about cost (as you say), durability, slatting. They are fussy about headings and have to operate withing PHRF or one-design rules. Cruisers use heavy dacron mains designed & overbuilt for harsh conditions, and they want them to last 3 years at least. They might like an inexpensive occasional-use nylon main.
 
#19 ·
Don't dismiss the sail because racers don't use it - according to the article, no one has one yet. this was something of an experiment. I sent a copy of the article to a hard-core ocean racing friend and he was very intrigued by it. Doesn't make much sense around the buoys, but it might well for long-distance races.
 
#20 ·
I still disagree. Think about the geometry of a main and its sail construction. The head of the main (and the halyard that supports the weight) is over the tack. The vertical luff is the only thing that is supported. That means, in order to increase the sail area, battens are needed to support the weight of the leach. You have limited geometry to play with. The head of a genoa on the other hand, is somewhere in the middle of the sail. (Depending upon the headsail size, but it is never over the tack like the main.) Spinnakers are also supported from more in the middle. If you were to set up the main like an A-kite, you would have to put the tack somewhere near the inner forestay deck fitting. I don't think you would have a very good tacking angle.

Racers go across oceans too! When we raced to Hawaii, we had four spinnakers, four headsails, a storm jib, a trysail and exactly one main (three reefs). Down below, it was more of a sail loft than a main salon. I doubt most cruisers would tolerate that kind of commitment to sail inventory. In fact, I hear that most cruisers do it with one main, one headsail and one cruising chute.

If you're really commited to light air performance, go out an buy a gallon of Sail Cote (after-all, that is what it's original purose was for.)
 
#23 ·
This kind of sail doesn't bother with battens. There is no roach. It is just a light sail for the aft triangle. I could even see double sheets like a storm trysail so the boom could be left in its crutch or however you leave it when not in use.

The tack can and should be attached at the gooseneck. It would not have a problem tacking. Racing across the Atlantic a few times, our sail inventory was as big as the one you mentioned. As I said in another post, I remember there being rules against a light weather main (then, I don't know about now), that's why racers can only carry a trysail for the aft triangle in addition to the main.

There really wouldn't be any problem with the geometry. It would be a bit smaller than the regular main (no roach and probably a bit higher in the foot to ride over the furled main) but it would fill better in a light breeze, though it probably wouldn't point worth a dam, and when down would fit in a pretty small bag.
 
#26 ·
quote: The two main advantages of the light weather main is that it really save a lot of wear and tear on the main and makes you go much better in those conditions. I can testify, as I am sure we all can, of the unease we feel as the mainsail droops loosely, only to be filled with a bang when a wave rocks the boat and suddenly fills it with the wind created by a roll to one side. Repeat on other side. Repeat again. And again. Etc.

I am not convinced this is such a good idea. Fitting a main that is so light I feel would only highten the dread as the sail slats with the light breeze as the boat roles with the swell. A decent MPS with light weight sheets would I think be a much safer option for very lighy airs and on most points of sail a main even a lighy one would shadow the heady making that almost as enoying.
 
#27 ·
For what it's worth, the author of the article in GOB noted that he had expressed many of the misgivings expressed in this thread until he actually tried a sail provided to him by a friend. At the time he wrote the article, he had been using the sail for 7+ years including at least one trans-Pacific crossing. It's a bit difficult to argue against something that has already proven itself, eh? And, if a single nylon assym will work, would not two--the second being much more easily handled--be even better?

Frankly, I think the sail's a great idea and I won't be surprised if some sail-maker or other doesn't come out with a production version.

Sometimes home-cooked ideas really have merit. While few will remember where the extendable bow-sprit that is ubiquitious on sport boats came from, the idea was first tried by a fellow in Long Beach California who cut a hole in the bow of his old ratty Santa Cruise 27 and stuck a spinnaker pole through it. Everyone bitched like heck because he was using a spinnaker pole on a sail that rated as a genoa--and beating the pants off everyone--but sure enough. In very short order the idea was picked up by Rod Johnston (Sp?) and soon became standard issue on the J-Boats.
 
#29 ·
For what it's worth, the author of the article in GOB noted that he had expressed many of the misgivings expressed in this thread until he actually tried a sail provided to him by a friend. At the time he wrote the article, he had been using the sail for 7+ years including at least one trans-Pacific crossing. It's a bit difficult to argue against something that has already proven itself, eh? And, if a single nylon assym will work, would not two--the second being much more easily handled--be even better?

Frankly, I think the sail's a great idea and I won't be surprised if some sail-maker or other doesn't come out with a production version.

Sometimes home-cooked ideas really have merit. While few will remember where the extendable bow-sprit that is ubiquitious on sport boats came from, the idea was first tried by a fellow in Long Beach California who cut a hole in the bow of his old ratty Santa Cruise 27 and stuck a spinnaker pole through it. Everyone bitched like heck because he was using a spinnaker pole on a sail that rated as a genoa--and beating the pants off everyone--but sure enough. In very short order the idea was picked up by Rod Johnston (Sp?) and soon became standard issue on the J-Boats.
Agree entirely.:) Dunno who invented the asym, but it was certainly popularized by tropical cruisers who did tons of reaching & wanted a low-hassle spi that could be flown shorthanded. Now it's the the main weapon on lots of race boats. Not very long ago, racers sneered at roller furling as a crutch for lazy-ass coastal cruizers who didn't understand or didn't care about optimal sail shape. Hey -- why was every single headsail on both AC boats attached to a furler? :D

The tide of knowledge and ideas does not flow one way, and the notion that "If such-and-such had any merit, racers would already be using it" is patently nonsense. Racers may face more rules constraints and, at the same time, have larger, higher-tech sail inventories to work with than cruisers, so maybe a light-air main is less attractive to them. But for many cruisers, whose primary main (and likely ONLY main!) must necessarily be overbuilt, heavy Dacron, a lightweight ghosting mainsail that will fly on a zephyr could be worth playing with. The material is cheap, little or no hardware modification is needed, and we promise to let the racers claim the idea once we've got it sorted.

Deal?:laugher
 
#28 ·
Interesting idea, but too complicated in my opinion.

A full batten main (or, even a 2+2 configuration) is probably the most appropriate solution to reduce wear in light drifting conditions. This main sail configuration, plus a lightweight Code sail that can accelerate the available air across the main is my preferred setup. Sometimes, I wll just use the Code 0 itself and drop the main...but usually, I just turn on the motor at that point.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I just dont see it as it takes two men and a small boy to change a mainsail on a boat of any size :)

We do this at least once a week on the 35 have it down to and art and would not want to be doing if the wind picked up at night

From a racing POV on the J24 which has a BIG v-berth if i keep the race and everyday sails onboard it wipes out the storage on the boat :)

On the 35' which has a big inventory and extra main is a real PITA to store as with the battens you have to roll it and leave it on the floor

And also having a light#1 and heavy #1 the light#1 which maxs out at 9 knots has substantial durability problems and we have pretty much give up on it
 
#31 ·
I"m just thinking out loud here, but if you built your light-air main without battens, stowage isn't an issue. In fact, again, just thinking out loud, why not treat it like a spinnaker? run a second main halyard and use a sock, making it easier to manage, and if you know you've got days of light wind forecast, no reason to constantly be stowing/deploying etc.
 
#32 · (Edited by Moderator)
I guess I am not sure why you would want to remove your regular main when deploying the "mainster"? As the article stated you would tie your main to your boom (not the racers, obviously) and deploy the "mainster" slightly above the furled main. The "mainster" is only attached at head, tack, and clew. This sounds pretty easy to deploy and douse. If you added a sock, as mentioned earlier, it could not get much easier. I would even venture to say this could be done single handed.
 
#33 ·
I really think this is much ado about a very marginal benefit that drowns in the related practical inconveniences and costs.

If one wants to radically improve the ability of the typical lead sled to move in light air, install a 30% sprit and buy a big asymetrical spinnaker. Your light air worries are over, and you can move fast in a moderate following wind.

A big sprit and a big asym, and the boat will never be the same. The many sport boats have this solution well worked out...but not a light air main to be seen.
 
#34 ·
The other issue I see with a light-air specific main sail is what happens to it if you get caught unawares by stronger winds. It would shred the light air main pretty easily, considering the weight of cloth that is being discussed.
 
#35 ·
I saw the article too. At first, looked hooky, but in the end, a sock to the top of the mast attach the tack and clew, pull up the sock, and you have a lit wt main sail up! For those that want a really heavy dacron sail, and are not willing to go with a slightly ligher but stronger cloth laminate, it is a good idea frankly.

WOuld I buy one? probably not. But then I have a string laminate main too. Up front a 130 1.5oz drifter, a .75 AS, 155 carbon laminate genoa, a 140 laminate daysail/cruise sail, and a 110 tri radial and a storm jib. Will probably get a bigger spin and a .85 jib at some point to. The 110 also has 3 battens. and the main has 2 reefs.

For those that have not seen the article, check it out before you go to off the wall about the idea.

Those of us with fin keelers, may not need this. Those with full keels, as the author had IIRC, might find this sail to work much to their advantage.

Marty
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top