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  #11  
Old 03-03-2010
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I see your point Tager - and I agree with it for the most part. There's nothing good in killing. Ever.

But I don't see in the story above where anybody killed anybody. They boarded a pirate ship and sunk it. That's pretty smart - it pre-empts the killing which will beget more killing.

From that standpoint - the better guys definitely won this one.
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  #12  
Old 03-03-2010
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(If you have ever read John Rawls, think about the Original Position in the context of this debate...)

Here's an alternate standpoint.

Pirates, Warlords and Rogue Fishing Vessels in Somalia's Unruly Seas

"Fishing vessels known to operate off Somalia include the following flags: Belize (either French or Spanish-owned purse seiners operating under flag of convenience to avoid EU regulations); France (purse seiners targeting tuna licensed to the food company Cobrecaf); Honduras (EU purse seiners targeting tuna under flag of convenience); Japan (longliners now operate under licence to the Republic of Somaliland); Kenya (Mombasa-based trawlers); Korea (longliners targeting swordfish seasonally); Pakistan (trawlers, but also targeting shark); Saudi Arabia (trawlers); Spain (purse seiners targeting tuna); Sri Lanka (trawlers, plus longliners targeting shark under licence to the Republic of Somaliland and based at Berbera, Somaliland); Taiwan (longliners targeting swordfish seasonally); and Yemen (trawlers financed by a seafood importer in Bari, Italy). Formerly operated as the Somali national fleet, four Yemeni trawlers and a collector vessel are now based in Aden (see photo)."

Let me say that this is not my standpoint, in fact I agree with you, but I am just attempting to debunk the myth that some killers are better than others. (I am assuming here that they scuttling included captain and crew.)

It doesn't matter if the person who kills you was a good guy or a bad guy, you are still dead.

Lets say you are born poor, Somalian, and in a coastal town. Your father is a fisherman, but the fisheries are gone. This is largely due to illegal fishing by other countries off of the Somalian coast.

Each day he goes out in his small fishing boat, and tries to catch enough to sustain your family. He sees large foreign ships flying false flags and fishing illegally. Within a few years, the fishery is completely depleted, he can't catch any fish. Your family is now completely destitute. There are no social services in your town. There is hardly a government at all. The richest men in town are pirates that steal from foreign vessels off the coast.

You get a fever. You are malnourished, and you need to see a doctor or you will die. Your father comes home one day, he brings food, a doctor, clothing, new bedding, materials to make your life better.

You don't wonder where it came from, but you are happy now that your fever is going away and you are able to eat as much as you want.

The next day your father dies and you are screwed.

So will you hear from your friends that your father was a pirate, and that some good guys on a ship killed him because he was on a boat that committed illegal acts? Will you think to yourself: "Oh, my dad was a bad guy, it's a good thing those good guys killed him!"

I doubt it.

The point is, the Somalians are not just rolling over and letting foreign countries destroy their livelihood. The structural violence that destroyed their fishery is being responded to directly with physical violence. It's not a surprise.

The pirates are being painted by the press as morally bankrupt thieves. I am pretty sure that many of them are bankrupt fishermen.

I don't doubt that many people here, on sailnet, of lighter moral constitution, would resort to the same behavior. If you are so ready to believe that one side or the other is "good" and that their actions are justified, you are just the type of person that could be convinced to become a pirate. Through self serving reasons, you can convince anyone that something is good.

Was the holocaust good?
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Old 03-03-2010
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Ahh, another sliding scale of good discussion. And the ever popular "It's all our fault" mentality !

Last edited by Zoomie; 03-03-2010 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010
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The statement then is; you repeat what you sow, and so death is part of it, there is a British couple still being held not to mention others, what say you to them sorry for your luck, I think its time to wake up and deal only in what they understand, bullets are cheap, and a needed thing for our freedom.
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Old 03-03-2010
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Sorry Tager - you're now going down the road of the ends justifying the means. Good luck with that.

I'll just stick with the simple premise that killing is bad - in whatever form it takes. And in this case, good was done by preempting killing by sinking a boat. Your speculation about whether or not dudes were on board is just that from what I can see.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-03-2010 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 03-04-2010
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[quote=tager;576493]Maybe you guys think I am an "enviro-nut" or a "liberal" or whatever.

Naaahhh!!!!

Really????? Why would you think that?

I reckon most folks, maybe even you, would cheer the death of the pirates if it was your boat they took from you.

I know I would - and I would celebrate the anniversary of their death every year from thereon in.
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In the news here, it said the pirate crew were allowed to return to shore in one of their life boats prior to the scuttling. It doesn't appear anyone was killed. Their offshore base ship was just sunk to hinder future attempts at piracy.
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  #18  
Old 03-04-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tager View Post
The pirates are being painted by the press as morally bankrupt thieves. I am pretty sure that many of them are bankrupt fishermen.
In the first instance the fellow who wrote the article you posted a link to was exposed to Somalia in 1998. At that time MAYBE the story of fishermen losing their livelyhood had a modicum of validity. 12 years on the rules have changed.

If you have access to it read the article in the March Cruising World written by a person who has had direct contact of the worst kind with these terrorists yu may see that these people are thugs driven by self-interest and nothing more. Not some UN do-gooder who had limited peripheral exposure.

When someone can show me evidence of these pirates taking the money they are stealing from others and applying it for the good of the population of even their village, let alone their country, then I may start to reflect on their methods and maybe I'll even begin to understand why they are picking on folks who have a) nothing to do with the demise of their fishing industry and b) no way of influencing it either way.

Until then, if I were given to religion, I would be praying hard for a very nasty end to each and every one of them.

There is no justification for what they do and every justification for ridding the world of them. Attitudes such as yours that find ways to justify them will not help anyone.
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2010
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Unfortunately, sometimes the killing of other human beings is a necessity. The Somalian pirates are not disgruntled fishermen trying to protect their fishing grounds, though they may have started off that way many years ago. The current crop have proven themselves to be amoral, greedy, and not deserving of any mercy.

IMHO, either you are against terrorists like these pirates or you are tacitly supporting them.
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Old 03-06-2010
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At a dinner in NYC in December I listened to a journalist from Somalia who runs the only local news web site in Mogadishu and reports for most of the international press. His discussion focused on the funding of the prirates and the distribution of the ransom money - and the industry that it has evolved into. The pirates get their funding and the majority of their arms from the various Islamic warlords/groups in the country. The ransom proceeds are divided roughly 30% to the warlords/groups, 30% to the local tribal authorities, 30% to the pirate group itself. I would suggest that the average pirate may get funds that might be used for medicine, food and blankets for his family but the "spoils" - according to the Somali reporter - tend to go to 4 Wheel drive vehicles, "fancy women," elaborate houses and the trappings of wealth; not "family value" expenditure.

Do we believe that we should permit individuals to violate international and local laws and customs to feed and clothe their family? Or should we expect, as the the hard life throughout history has shown, some of the disadvantaged can claw their way to a better life without recourse to violence and illegality and some, sadly, can not.

I may be a more attractive catch than a net full of fish, the fisherman's kids may need the proceeds from the theft of my vessel, but I'm not prepared for a world that allows the confiscation of my boat for someone else's benefit.

And as SD notes and the Somali journalist confirms; we are a long way from poor fisherman and a good way to dangerous kleptocracy on an industrial scale.

And the poor British couple are not having a good time of it -
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