Opinions on project boats

[svs3]

Hi all,

I find myself contemplating undertaking the refurbishment of a boat that may be in need of a "little" TLC. At the moment I don't have a particular boat in mind but the target boat would be in the Triton, Albin Vega, Alberg 30 class. Generally speaking I am thinking about this because I have more time than money (I doubt this will change anytime soon) and given my situation it may be more realistic for me to dole out relatively small to medium amounts of money than than attempt to accumulate a larger amount and get something more turnkey later. I have most skills necessary to do almost all (~90%) of the work myself and have done it at one time or another. Also I am extremely auto-didactic. My weakest skill is welding, strongest is mechanical, and good with fiberglass and woodworking.

Generally, I imagine a budget some like this:

Phase 1: $4000 - $7000 for initial purchase, $7000 - $10,000 for the refit with a time frame of 1.5 to 3 years to complete from the purchase of said boat.

Phase 2: $0 -$2000 Shakedown cruises, fine tuning with a time frame of 6 months to 1.5 year.

Phase 3: Stock cruising kitty as quickly as possible leave working as needed.

My questions to those that have done this or thought about it are:
1) Does the budget and time allotted seem realistic?
2) What problems are true showstoppers? What are the ones that may not be as serious as initially thought?
3) How much easier (if at all) rebuilding a boat to the original, more or less, layout vs. heavy amounts of personalization of the layout?

Ultimately I looking to cruise on a very tight budget. But I am not married to this idea and could certainly ended up scraping it.

Thanks for any and all insight,
Sam

P.S. In the coming days I search the archives for related threads and may resurrect portion of them to ask questions and seek more refined answers and opinions.

[sailingdog]

I would recommend you start with an initial budget of closer to $7000, since the quality of boat you start out with will be far greater than if your budget is $4000.

Are you planning on coastal cruising/cruising the Caribbean or going for bluewater passages? If the latter, you will probably want to spend a little more money to make the boat more seaworthy. In either case, spending some money to increase the boat's self-sufficiency is a good idea—since that will reduce your long-term costs. Things like solar panels and such help keep a boat from relying on marinas for battery charging.

One good book to look at is The Sailor’s Guide to Small Cruising Sailboats. It discusses a lot of small sailboats under 26' that might be suitable for you to use.

[bljones]

Follow along and feel free to stop me if I lose you along the way.
DON"T buy a boat right now.
Here's why:
Okay, you have $4000-7000 right now, and a 1.5- 3 year budget right now. Start looking. Look all spring. Look all summer. take the next six months and save some more money. Can you save another measly $250/month?
Good. Because now your budget is up to $8500, and you are getting serious about buying a boat in the FALL, the best time (next to winter) to get a deal on a boat, IMO. The time you spent saving and looking will be time SAVED rebuilding, because you now have a BETTER boat needing less work. In fact, if you use BL's 50% Depreciation Rule of Thumb (Any part, piece, project, will be instantly worth 50% less the moment it is installed), by spending an extra $1500 you will get a boat at least $3000 better.
Good luck, there are lots of possibilities out there.

[graypenguin]

svs3:
You have described my situation and initial plans almost to a tee

The only difference is I am looking at around $10,000 to start and hopefully around $10,000 a year for 3-4 years to get my TLC boat ready to take to the Carib at least and maybe around the world at some point.

I have seen several likely TLC's out there and after reading a lot on this forum I am leaning towards a CAL or Pearson in the 33 to 39 range.

I am not sure if I agree with bljones on the waiting though. In years past I would not doubt have agreed but in today's economy I think the winter type prices are mostly the norm. And the sooner you can start the sooner you can make the dream a reality. (I do agree about doing as much looking and research as possible though!)

I wish you the best of luck in your plans and remember, this is a good place to learn but its also a place where you have to take a lot of things with a grain of salt. Lots of opinion's when it comes to boats and heated debates over things that have no 100% right answer are the norm.

[sailingdog]

Originally Posted by bljones

Follow along and feel free to stop me if I lose you along the way.
DON"T buy a boat right now.
Here's why:
Okay, you have $4000-7000 right now, and a 1.5- 3 year budget right now. Start looking. Look all spring. Look all summer. take the next six months and save some more money. Can you save another measly $250/month?
Good. Because now your budget is up to $8500, and you are getting serious about buying a boat in the FALL, the best time (next to winter) to get a deal on a boat, IMO. The time you spent saving and looking will be time SAVED rebuilding, because you now have a BETTER boat needing less work. In fact, if you use BL's 50% Depreciation Rule of Thumb (Any part, piece, project, will be instantly worth 50% less the moment it is installed), by spending an extra $1500 you will get a boat at least $3000 better.
Good luck, there are lots of possibilities out there.

Only if you stick with the same size boat....if you go up in boat size, then all bets are off. However, BLJ's got a very good point... if you have $7000 to spend, you can get an okay boat, but often if you go up to just $10,000 you'll have a the same make/model boat that is in much better shape and the upgrades to get the $7000 boat to this point are going to be far more than the $3000 in price.

[daydreamer92]

I think Bljones has some sound advice if only because spring prices might well be able "we don't want to pay to store this boat again" prices at the end of the season. If you're not planning on sailing this year, then it probably isn't necessary to get the boat right now.

Spring summer is when you can be looking, narrowing down your choices, cruising the boat yards looking for that gem that just needs a bit of help and planning for logistics during the rehab.

Of course if during all this you come across the perfect boat for a great price that probably won't last, you're still in a position to snap it up with the funds you have available.

[TQA]

Good thread here CLICKY


What you are planning is doable IMHO, esp if you stay away from a "yottie" quality finish and resist the temptation to " go large".

Small is beautiful when it comes to keeping the costs down.

[CalebD]

Originally Posted by svs3

What problems are true showstoppers? What are the ones that may not be as serious as initially thought?

Engine condition. If you have to re-power a boat with even a used motor it will cost you dearly unless you can do all that yourself. I would look for boats that have already been re-powered within the last 5 - 10 years, preferably with a Beta (marinized Kubota) which would likely be new at the time of install.
That said, my 43 year old Tartan 27' still has the original Atomic 4 gas engine which has been well cared for. I am just not planning on crossing oceans with my set up.
Good luck.

[LarryandSusanMacDonald]

I applaud your idea to undertake a project boat. When you are finished, you will know everything about the boat, every thru-hull location and it's condition and what it does, every electrical wire and why it's there, every flaw and every strength.

Many, too many, who can afford to spend a quarter of a million on a boat go out cruising and when something fails, they have no idea what to do, or have the parts and tools if they did.

Bear in mind the boat axiom that 'everything you attempt will take three time as long and cost three times as much as originally estimated. Also, every project will have three projects which logically and necessarily must be completed before you start on the original project. Each of these projects will also follow this 'Rule of Three's" Any attempt to incorporate the 'Rule of Three's' into your original estimate will result in yet another tripling of cost and time.

I say this not to discourage but to instill pragmatism. And also to help avoid disappointment when you find the costs and projects piling up faster than it seems you have time and money to complete them.

Persevere. It will be worth it. Good luck and hope to see you out there cruising sometime.

We bought our boat 13 years ago. We have been living aboard and cruising ever since. And I have never stopped working on her.

One further piece of advice: Take the time for 'shakedown cruises' each time you complete a project. (After, of course, she is sea-worthy.)

I've met many who have done one project after another and never left the dock until all projects on the list were completed. Then, they left on the 'BIG CRUISE." One returned in as little as 45 minutes discovering that he had rigged the sail wrong and could only raise it part way and couldn't lower it. I have no idea how he managed to do that but he barely managed to get back to the dock. We met him again in Florida, by himself, (wife moved back ashore) dejected, despondent. No idea what happened to him after that, but I doubt he's still n board.

Complete a project, and take the boat out and test it if only for a few hours. You may find other things wrong which you can correct before the 'big cruise.' You'll also learn about the boat and about seamanship and all the things which you (and your crew) lack.

Also, if you have a significant other, keep her in mind. If the crew ain't happy, no way is the captain going to be happy. I don't know if it is you intent to go out cruising, or just weekending on your boat, but if it isn't comfortable, if it doesn't have the 'amenities,' you're going to end up lonesome. It doesn't need a large screen TV, air conditioning and a microwave, but it should have a comfortable, dry bed; a stove; adequate lighting and ventilation; and all safety equipment, and more if the crew demands it. Remember, you're not camping out under the stars.

[n0w0rries]

Is this your first sailboat? If so, you're plan has a high risk of failure.

My recommendation:
Buy a popular boat in your price range that's at fair market value towards the end of the season (when prices/availability are best). You will quickly learn what features you like, what features you don't, and how much things cost to repair and how long it takes to fix them. If the boat you pick isn't the right one, sell it at the begining of the next season, and then save and start shopping at the end of the season. The knowledge you gained from the practice boat will pay for itself here.

What you don't want to do is end up buying a project boat for $5000 and at the end of 3 years of hard work you have a $30,000 boat that's fair market value is $12,000.

Case in point. I bought a 1978 Searay that had recently been repowered with a Volvo 41P ($15k + $10k install). I put another $10k into it (trailer and boat, with me doing all the labor and buying everything on bargains). I sold it for $19k. Moral of the story--I got a good deal buying the boat for less then repower cost. The guy who bought the boat from me got a good deal because of all the work I did.