Liferafts! VERY Important Thread for all Cruisers - Page 15 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #141  
Old 04-26-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,145
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_L View Post
Go back and read the #1 statement under this 'must be read by all cruisers' topic and see if you still think it is correct? I just can't see how anyone could have read the many posts here that clearly counter what was stated and still want to go back and say 'oh you missed the context, it is really a true statement, when a life raft flips, you are dead'. Even the original poster changed his stance on this instead of just digging in his heals - possibly an Internet miracle. What is the need to defend a false and misleading statement?

Paul L
Paul, in the interest of beating dead bloated horses that are floating around the ocean after being ejected from their life rafts, let me give you my take on that comment, and why I agree with it in principle.

In the middle of a F9 storm, my Swan is holed by the stiff hoof of said dead horse 250 miles offshore. On board are myself, my 105 lb wife, and our 2 kids (both under 11). We are going down. We correctly deploy the LR after having done everything else flawlessly prior to abandoning our sinking ship (EPIRB, radio calls, ditch bags, etc.) We'll say our LR is a 6-man raft (based on the occupancy of a 40' boat). Into that raft go a total of maybe 320 pounds plus gear. So 400 lbs of ballast for a 6-man raft.

We are not wearing gumby suits - just foulies and pfds. We were cruising to Bermuda from Florida (whatever). And what cruisers on this forum actually have gumby suits for their crew? Seriously.

Anyway, once the Swan goes under we are inside the raft in 41-47 knots of wind 23'-32' waves when it flips. Now what? Do we try to keep the wife and kids inside the inverted raft while I go out and try to flip it? Do we all exit the raft into the rough seas where my wife tries to hold onto each kid as they get hit by these waves AND stay close to the quickly drifting raft while I struggle to flip it. Then when it does right, how much energy do we all have left to have the wife swim the kids to the raft which has drifted like crazy in the F9 conditions, or me go get them and drag them back? Then, when we all get back to the raft how much energy do we have left to get the kids, then ourselves back into that empty raft - which hopefully has not flipped again by the time we get to this point?

Now, let's say I was injured either before or during the flip. What then? The wife is doing all the above? Are you starting to see how much worse this scenario can get just by a flip?

Again, to me, this scenario illustrates very clearly that, in such a case, "if the raft flips we're dead".

And it definitely makes you think about A LOT of things. And raft design is only one of those.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-26-2010 at 04:21 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #142  
Old 04-26-2010
blackjenner's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: in a condo
Posts: 250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
blackjenner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_L View Post
Go back and read the #1 statement under this 'must be read by all cruisers' topic and see if you still think it is correct? I just can't see how anyone could have read the many posts here that clearly counter what was stated and still want to go back and say 'oh you missed the context, it is really a true statement, when a life raft flips, you are dead'. Even the original poster changed his stance on this instead of just digging in his heals - possibly an Internet miracle. What is the need to defend a false and misleading statement?

Paul L
Absolutely, factually, 100%, literally correct, in the sense of people having to be "right" over the chance of understanding each other? You mean like that?

No, it's not that kind of correct.

Taken in context, it's correct enough for me.

YMMV
__________________
"There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows (River Rat to Mole)

1980 Baba 35 Pilot House Cutter - Brigadoon


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #143  
Old 04-26-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 171
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
Paul_L is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Paul, in the interest of beating dead bloated horses that are floating around the ocean after being ejected from their life rafts, let me give you my take on that comment, and why I agree with it in principle.

In the middle of a F9 storm, my Swan is holed by the stiff hoof of said dead horse 250 miles offshore. On board are myself, my 105 lb wife, and our 2 kids (both under 11). We are going down. We deploy the LR (after having done everything else flawlessly prior to abandoning our sinking ship) - which we'll say is a 6-man raft (based on the occupancy of a 40' boat). Into that raft go a total of maybe 320 pounds plus some gear. So 400 lbs of ballast for a 6-man raft.

We are not wearing gumby suits - just foulies and pfds. We were cruising to Bermuda from Florida (whatever). And what cruisers on this forum actually have gumby suits for their crew? Seriously.

Anyway, once the Swan goes under we are inside the raft in 41-47 knots of wind 23'-32' waves when it flips. Now what? Do we try to keep the wife and kids inside the inverted raft while I go out and try to flip it? Do we all exit the raft into the rough seas where my wife tries to hold onto each kid as they get hit by these waves AND stay close to the raft while I struggle to flip it. Then when it does right, how much energy do we all have left to have the wife swim the kids to the raft which has drifted like crazy in the F9 conditions, or me go get them and drag them back? Then, when we all get back to the raft how much energy do we have left to get the kids, then ourselves back into that empty raft - which hopefully has not flipped again by the time we get to this point?

Now, let's say I was injured either before or during the flip. What then? The wife is doing all the above?

Again, to me, this scenario illustrates to me very clearly that "if the raft flips we're dead".

And it definitely makes you think about A LOT of things.
Yes, Smackdaddy you and your family would probably be dead. For all the other cases where people have actually taken to liferafts in serious weather and have been flipped multiple times and were able to right the craft, they would would probably be alive.

Paul L
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #144  
Old 04-26-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,145
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Cool. Then I'll take the one that doesn't flip please.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #145  
Old 04-26-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 171
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
Paul_L is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Cool. Then I'll take the one that doesn't flip please.
Except they don't exist. You are talking about a tiny rubber raft being launched into a giant sea. The mother ship has already succumbed to the extreme conditions. Breaking 30 ft waves will flip any raft. This is one of the main reasons you never want to leave the mothership until absolutely mandatory.

Either way, I think I'm done with the subject. The argument is just getting silly. Sure, if I could get a reasonably priced, reasonable weight, reasonable size, easy to launch NOT Flippable liferaft, I'd select it over another one. They don't exist for the conditions that they have to work in.

Paul L
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #146  
Old 04-26-2010
Barquito's Avatar
Barquito
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,955
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Barquito is on a distinguished road
Is it possible to flip a LR from the inside?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #147  
Old 04-26-2010
wunhunglo's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Vancouver
Posts: 25
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
wunhunglo is on a distinguished road
"The bloated dead horse" gallops on... will it reach the shore?

Brian,
My post had no intent to belittle. My apologies if you felt that.

Your original topic's title made this almost mandatory reading, so I entered the hallowed halls of SN, cap in hand as a newbie on this forum . I see an extravagant claim that essentially says don't use liferafts, they will kill you. I read on ... seeing many sing your praises and hardly a person had commented on your damning and inaccurate generalization.

You are right... it's a very sobering and serious issue and given that, I was more focused more on calling out the dangerous, and incorrect generalization than perhaps thinking too much about how it might be received.

When it comes to issues like this, perhaps I can be a little abrupt. My intent is to offer facts. However, my first post had no scathing criticism and simply focused on stating some other facts that rafts can be righted. I also posted a non-controversial post showing some real-world examples of rafts that do what you claim they can't.

Later posters rallied to your "defense" criticizing attempts by anyone to correct you on the death trap claim. I found it bizarre on a subject that's about saving lives, that posters were more concerned about taking a "thin blue line" stance than possibly seeing any merit in opposing views. Most of those responses were pretty pompous and dismissive (including one of yours) by implying that opponents clearly didn't have a clue, were wet behind the ears, and should post some real world experience i.e. any criticism can't possibly be real world !! My obviously useless input must have come from sitting on the couch reading sailing magazines or using Google.

That's why I posted an admittedly sarcastic summary of this entire topic. It was cynical because it does come across as a dramatic sea rescue of an empty raft, a non life threatening situation, yet received by the SN disciples as "sobering" and heroic. The serious point you raised of self righting, was virtually ignored. That revelation of the thin blue line was more sobering !!

Standing back from it, you must surely see this unhealthy pack behavior on this important topic? Even proponents of the Pudgy seemed blinded by product loyalty than seeing all the flaws with that solution as a viable alternative to a raft.

It's too important to be glib with inaccuracies and it's more important to get input from sources that have something to contribute. Sorry if you feel bruised, but in a way, you brought criticism on yourself. Contrary to your post, I don't get off on "lashing" as you put it, and frankly see your point on that as a bit of dramatic defensiveness. I am more motivated by reality and accuracy.

Going forward, I'll probably resort to more lurking and less posting if the thin blue line is more important in SN than more tolerance of opposing and experienced views.

Smack D:
You know my posts from other places... hopefully you can see through my sarcasm on mine in this topic.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #148  
Old 04-26-2010
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barquito View Post
Is it possible to flip a LR from the inside?
Yes. The article by Steven Callahan alludes to the ability to right a raft from the inside; which I would assume would require standing on the roof and then pulling one side of the tubes down and walking along the roof toward your hands until it flips upright again.

The scenario posted by Smack is a bit melodramatic. Who is gonna take their family out into the sea and put themselves into the position of survival sailing with their children aboard? YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID!! NATURAL SELECTION AFTER THE FACT! (sadly for the children involved)

We have all seen and heard about families lost at sea and families who struggled to survive in a raft or on heavy seas in their sailboat. For those of you who have children please, please don't follow in their footsteps and subject your families to the horrors of survival at sea for the self gratification of being a world cruising sailor. There are acceptable and un-acceptable risks here; and coastal passagemaking or island hopping are one thing (with known weather windows that have a few days of extra good weather). Going across oceans with family aboard or sailing out into hazardous seas because you need to stay on schedule is quite another.

There is a reason why you need to be 18 to join the Navy; and there is a reason why there are laws that protect children from endangerment; but unfortunately there is no enforcement of this when it comes to taking kids far offshore. Remember, they have no choice in the matter; and you ARE taking a risk whether you go out for a daysail or for a trip across the ocean. It is your decision as the person responsible to make decisions on behalf of everyone onboard; even if they cant (a meek spouse) or don't know they should protest your choices regarding their personal safety.

This magical miniature craft that is impervious to wind and waves in the most powerful fury the ocean has to offer (50' seas, 100kt winds or more) simply does not exist. (well, it does but it's not designed to be more than a single person boat; or a tender). If it did exist; the patent holder would be a billionaire. But it doesn't; so forget about that little fantasy.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #149  
Old 04-26-2010
n0w0rries's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 240
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
n0w0rries is on a distinguished road
I don't understand why you guys get so worked up. It's not like somebody's going to go offshore without a life raft because they read this post. Anybody who would do that deserves whatever fate they get handed.

Having a life raft, a survivor suit, a dinghy, a EPIRB, all give you options in an emergency. Options are a good thing.
__________________
Caribbean 50 Ketch
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #150  
Old 04-26-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,145
Thanks: 85
Thanked 79 Times in 73 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunhunglo View Post
My obviously useless input must have come from sitting on the couch reading sailing magazines or using Google.

Smack D:
You know my posts from other places... hopefully you can see through my sarcasm on mine in this topic.
Hey - the above works just fine for me!

Seriously WHL, I totally understand the thin-blue-line thing. Trust me. I've dangled from its noose a few times. And it is WAY better than it used to be around here in that regard. Trust me there too.

CD is a great guy. He's the ultimate nice guy who's sacrificed a lot for SN and is now doing what we all dream of. And he's been a shining light around here when things were going to hell in a handbasket. That's why we'll jump to his defense at times. So, take all that with a grain of salt.

I know your posts from SA and I know sarcasm when I see it. Hopefully, people around here can see it too.

More importantly, as has been said by other guys here, including the mods, I for one really value your experience and input and would hate to see the thin-blue-line strangle that input. In my opinion, we definitely need more variety in experience. It helps guys like me, newbs that are crazy about this sport, learn. It was great to see you and Boom come over and keep us up to date on stuff.

So don't pipe down. Let's just all agree to Harden The Freak Up and talk sailing. Anyway I always prefer a good, gentlemanly beatdown to niceties.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-26-2010 at 07:27 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production blue water boats JakeLevi Boat Review and Purchase Forum 73 07-31-2009 10:07 PM
Bluewater defined? dch Learning to Sail 44 07-29-2009 07:20 PM
The Cruiser's Wardrobe Sue & Larry Cruising Articles 0 11-25-2004 07:00 PM
Cruiser's Medical Plan Randy Harman Cruising Articles 0 08-18-2003 08:00 PM
Medical Issues for Cruisers Part One Liza Copeland Seamanship Articles 0 07-16-2002 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:01 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.