Liferafts! VERY Important Thread for all Cruisers - Page 17 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #161  
Old 04-27-2010
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
Anyone who is planning voyaging which will include an ocean crossing or two and thinks that Smack's scenario can't happen to them would do their family a great service by disposing of the boat ASAP. It can happen to anyone and you don't have to be stupid.

Once again I come back to the Sleavin event and their weather wasn't even that bad - they just happened to get in the way of a ship. Judith Sleavin gives a chilling account of how her family was sequentially drowned in a fashion not disimilar to Smack's hyperbole.
OK; did I ever say that Smack's scenario could not happen; or that it was not plausible? I said that if you ever found yourself in the situation he described YOU MUST BE WITHOUT BRAINS. I'm sorry; but taking your family on ocean crossing voyages in a small craft (smaller than something like a cruise ship) is just foolish. You have kids only to put them in a situation where their life depends on what the weather patterns decide to throw at you? You see; most SANE people who have children choose to live their life for their child so their child will grow up to be an adult.

That being said; I'm sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of families floating around out there in the deep blue sea. Of them a handful of those families will experience tragedy; maybe never heard from again, maybe loss of life with a parent or both surviving, leaving them to suffer in grief for the rest of their days for the mistake they made of taking their children offshore.

All of these people who go cruising with their children will defend their choices to the end. Their child is getting such a rich and diverse upbringing; an alternative lifestyle, enrichment of culture, escape from the modern world, blah blah blah... But what they never mention is the rough times, the fear, and then they write books about their tragic loss after they have lost everything including their kids; AND NEVER ACCEPT THEIR OWN PART IN IT, that they never should have put the family in that situation in the first place.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #162  
Old 04-27-2010
remetau's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 780
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 6
remetau is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
OK; did I ever say that Smack's scenario could not happen; or that it was not plausible? I said that if you ever found yourself in the situation he described YOU MUST BE WITHOUT BRAINS. I'm sorry; but taking your family on ocean crossing voyages in a small craft (smaller than something like a cruise ship) is just foolish. You have kids only to put them in a situation where their life depends on what the weather patterns decide to throw at you? You see; most SANE people who have children choose to live their life for their child so their child will grow up to be an adult.

That being said; I'm sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of families floating around out there in the deep blue sea. Of them a handful of those families will experience tragedy; maybe never heard from again, maybe loss of life with a parent or both surviving, leaving them to suffer in grief for the rest of their days for the mistake they made of taking their children offshore.

All of these people who go cruising with their children will defend their choices to the end. Their child is getting such a rich and diverse upbringing; an alternative lifestyle, enrichment of culture, escape from the modern world, blah blah blah... But what they never mention is the rough times, the fear, and then they write books about their tragic loss after they have lost everything including their kids; AND NEVER ACCEPT THEIR OWN PART IN IT, that they never should have put the family in that situation in the first place.

WOW! I meet all kinds of people who cruise with their kids and are quite happy and safe. I guess you don't own a car and drive down the street, because that is way more dangerous than taking your kids cruising.
__________________
Don & Diana
sv Re Metau an HC33t

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by remetau; 04-27-2010 at 12:13 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #163  
Old 04-27-2010
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mobile Liveaboards
Posts: 9,894
Thanks: 3
Thanked 97 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
OK; did I ever say that Smack's scenario could not happen; or that it was not plausible? I said that if you ever found yourself in the situation he described YOU MUST BE WITHOUT BRAINS. I'm sorry; but taking your family on ocean crossing voyages in a small craft (smaller than something like a cruise ship) is just foolish. You have kids only to put them in a situation where their life depends on what the weather patterns decide to throw at you? You see; most SANE people who have children choose to live their life for their child so their child will grow up to be an adult.

That being said; I'm sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of families floating around out there in the deep blue sea. Of them a handful of those families will experience tragedy; maybe never heard from again, maybe loss of life with a parent or both surviving, leaving them to suffer in grief for the rest of their days for the mistake they made of taking their children offshore.

All of these people who go cruising with their children will defend their choices to the end. Their child is getting such a rich and diverse upbringing; an alternative lifestyle, enrichment of culture, escape from the modern world, blah blah blah... But what they never mention is the rough times, the fear, and then they write books about their tragic loss after they have lost everything including their kids; AND NEVER ACCEPT THEIR OWN PART IN IT, that they never should have put the family in that situation in the first place.
More than once I have woken up sweaty thinking about that very thing. If, as a parent, it you have not been scared by the reality, then you have not been far offshore or you have some wires twisted. I think the life raft issue affected me as much as it did because of the kids.

I am not sure I would take my kids across the pond with me on a long run. I would really need to get my girl out in some more stroms offshore and see how she does. My issue is not just safety, but the kids being pinned up in a hole for a long time. Shorter runs of a few days, where the weather information can be deemed a little reliable and you can pick when to go... well, I am a little more comfortable with that.

But I respectfully dissagree with your assessment. And although I have nightmares about things happening, I also watch as my kids have consistently grown to love this life. More than once, they have said thank you to me and Kris about bringing them here, living on the boat, etc. I will not dissagree that in many cases, your presumptions may be correct. But I have also seen just the opposite. We met some great Candian friends just a month or two ago and we became fairly close and found that both our kids have very similar traits and both would not leave the boat for a home-side living. I am not talking about parents... I am talking about the kids.

But tehn again, I grew up deep woods backpacking. I am not talking about camping. Cmaping is fun - but I am talking about loading a pack and heading off for a week or two. There were no cell phones then (at least that we could afford). And though you might say that backpacking is a safer life, I will tell you that more than once we were put in some survival conditions. But I grew to have a love and appreciation for nature, the mountains, and became very independent. I think it made me the person I am today. Those experiences cannot be replaced by anything in the ordinary.

So basically I see your point KH. You make a good argument. But there is a line there that can be drawn and a balance. Where taht balance and line is? Well, that is up to th parents I guess. I certainly would not put it in anyone else hands.

Just my opinions.

Brian

PS I wonder if we should take this conversation to the childrens forum?
__________________
Sailnet Adminstrator & Moderator
Catalina 400 Technical Editor

2004 Catalina 400, Sea Mist IV (our boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in S FL and Keys primarily)
1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #164  
Old 04-27-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
OK; did I ever say that Smack's scenario could not happen; or that it was not plausible? I said that if you ever found yourself in the situation he described YOU MUST BE WITHOUT BRAINS.
Keel, you're absolutely right. It was a pretty implausible scenario. I've never come across any yacht being holed by a horse hoof and going down. And if you do sink due to such an occurrence, you're definitely without brains. So you're right on that score.

The rest of it, however....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #165  
Old 04-27-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
OK; did I ever say that Smack's scenario could not happen; or that it was not plausible? I said that if you ever found yourself in the situation he described YOU MUST BE WITHOUT BRAINS. I'm sorry; but taking your family on ocean crossing voyages in a small craft (smaller than something like a cruise ship) is just foolish. You have kids only to put them in a situation where their life depends on what the weather patterns decide to throw at you? You see; most SANE people who have children choose to live their life for their child so their child will grow up to be an adult.

That being said; I'm sure that there are hundreds if not thousands of families floating around out there in the deep blue sea. Of them a handful of those families will experience tragedy; maybe never heard from again, maybe loss of life with a parent or both surviving, leaving them to suffer in grief for the rest of their days for the mistake they made of taking their children offshore.

All of these people who go cruising with their children will defend their choices to the end. Their child is getting such a rich and diverse upbringing; an alternative lifestyle, enrichment of culture, escape from the modern world, blah blah blah... But what they never mention is the rough times, the fear, and then they write books about their tragic loss after they have lost everything including their kids; AND NEVER ACCEPT THEIR OWN PART IN IT, that they never should have put the family in that situation in the first place.
That seems to me a vast overstatement, to say the least:

"I'm sorry; but taking your family on ocean crossing voyages in a small craft (smaller than something like a cruise ship) is just foolish"....a handful of those families will experience tragedy; ."

My friend, accidents happen everywhere. Do you think that an occasional crossing, in a well prepared ocean going boat (not a ship ) made by a well prepared crew (Kids can be part of the crew) on the right season and with good weather information is more dangerous than crossing everyday a very busy traffic lane? or than to be driven to School and back every day, on crowded motorways, by a school bus or in Daddy’s car? or making an annual long car family trip to enjoy holidays in a nice place?

Take into consideration that ocean crossings by a cruising family are rare, they spend most of the time doing coastal cruising, but all the above road examples are frequent, some happen everyday. Do you think that the overall risk is really so significantly bigger, to call foolish the ones that have chosen other lifestyle?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-27-2010 at 05:48 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #166  
Old 04-27-2010
remetau's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 780
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 6
remetau is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Keel, you're absolutely right. It was a pretty implausible scenario. I've never come across any yacht being holed by a horse hoof and going down. And if you do sink due to such an occurrence, you're definitely without brains. So you're right on that score.

The rest of it, however....
I don't know... Quite possible in the horse lattitudes.
__________________
Don & Diana
sv Re Metau an HC33t

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #167  
Old 04-27-2010
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
So basically I see your point KH. You make a good argument. But there is a line there that can be drawn and a balance. Where taht balance and line is? Well, that is up to th parents I guess. I certainly would not put it in anyone else hands.
Yes; there is and that is up to you to decide what is an acceptable risk and what is not. From what I have read CD you are a person who takes these things seriously and would not knowingly put your family in the situation where your survival depended on everything going perfectly. Of course there is no guarantee that something will happen but you do your best to minimize the risk. If it were me, I would not go on long passages where you can't be at the next port before the 96 hour weather report is expired. If conditions change and you get some unexpected rough weather that's acceptable; but if you are knowingly sailing into the eye of a storm and must make port before it hits, or sail around it to get there well you are taking your chances.

I can't see going on ocean crossing voyages with all the eggs in the basket as being a responsible parent. This is where I lose sympathy for those who have lost their children; regardless of who was ultimately at-fault.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #168  
Old 04-27-2010
blackjenner's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: in a condo
Posts: 250
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
blackjenner is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Keel, you're absolutely right. It was a pretty implausible scenario. I've never come across any yacht being holed by a horse hoof and going down. And if you do sink due to such an occurrence, you're definitely without brains. So you're right on that score.

The rest of it, however....
Well, sometimes people are so busy picking nits and a fight they don't see the larger context of the conversation. Ya know the one, where people are treating each other decently and working for understanding instead of being 'right'.
__________________
"There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows (River Rat to Mole)

1980 Baba 35 Pilot House Cutter - Brigadoon


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #169  
Old 04-27-2010
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Mobile Liveaboards
Posts: 9,894
Thanks: 3
Thanked 97 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Yes; there is and that is up to you to decide what is an acceptable risk and what is not. From what I have read CD you are a person who takes these things seriously and would not knowingly put your family in the situation where your survival depended on everything going perfectly. Of course there is no guarantee that something will happen but you do your best to minimize the risk. If it were me, I would not go on long passages where you can't be at the next port before the 96 hour weather report is expired. If conditions change and you get some unexpected rough weather that's acceptable; but if you are knowingly sailing into the eye of a storm and must make port before it hits, or sail around it to get there well you are taking your chances.

I can't see going on ocean crossing voyages with all the eggs in the basket as being a responsible parent. This is where I lose sympathy for those who have lost their children; regardless of who was ultimately at-fault.
Well (humorously), and to point out the real world aspects too, taking yoru family across the ocean, weeks at a time, starting at each other, well... tempers are going to flare! I would not consider that a stree-free environment, regardless of the weather.

I am not saying I would not do it, I am not saying I would. I am just telling you that I would have a few more greys before I raised Europe, assuming there was not a mutiny and I was testing out my own life raft!!!!

Thanks for the kind words by the way.

Brian
__________________
Sailnet Adminstrator & Moderator
Catalina 400 Technical Editor

2004 Catalina 400, Sea Mist IV (our boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in S FL and Keys primarily)
1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #170  
Old 04-27-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Three Mile Harbor, East Hampton, NY
Posts: 462
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 8
tweitz is on a distinguished road
Although it is somewhat less likely, one does not need to cross the pond to find a dangerous or survival condition. The risks are lower, search and rescue is closer, but the great bulk of fatalities and injuries happen a lot closer to home (also the great bulk of sailing). All of these issues go to risk -- a lady doing her gardening in her front yard was hit by a car and killed the other day, Nothing is risk free. I love sailing, I introduced it to my kids when they were pretty young. They enjoy it, though they are not as consumed with it as I am. And three of my four grandchildren have already started sailing (the fourth one is only three weeks old, but she will surely sail this summer. But, though i try reasonably to mitigate the risk i don't delude myself that it is risk free. Lifeboats or liferafts are no guarantee of anything. Life comes with few guarantees. They are simply ways of adjusting the odds. If we strip away the polemics, this discussion was useful in pointing out the benefits and weaknesses. Thanks CD for starting the thread, and other for contributing. And I will still go sailing with the whole crowd, as I think that on balance their lives are far more enriched than risked.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production blue water boats JakeLevi Boat Review and Purchase Forum 73 07-31-2009 10:07 PM
Bluewater defined? dch Learning to Sail 44 07-29-2009 07:20 PM
The Cruiser's Wardrobe Sue & Larry Cruising Articles 0 11-25-2004 07:00 PM
Cruiser's Medical Plan Randy Harman Cruising Articles 0 08-18-2003 08:00 PM
Medical Issues for Cruisers Part One Liza Copeland Seamanship Articles 0 07-16-2002 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:56 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012