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  #451  
Old 06-03-2010
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Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I hate to tell you this; but use of natural gas, propane, or electricity (from an efficient coal-fired powerplant) is way, way less pollutive than burning wood or wood pellets to cook. Not to mention the health concerns of cooking over wood on a daily basis. When you burn wood or pellets you produce particulate matter and carbon monoxide; in addition to the CO2. I would switch over to mulching or composting your stove fuel.
Google Top lit up draft stove.
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  #452  
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Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I hate to tell you this; but use of natural gas, propane, or electricity (from an efficient coal-fired powerplant) is way, way less pollutive than burning wood or wood pellets to cook. Not to mention the health concerns of cooking over wood on a daily basis. When you burn wood or pellets you produce particulate matter and carbon monoxide; in addition to the CO2. I would switch over to mulching or composting your stove fuel.
Well, I just had to look up what a TLUD stove was, interesting. You are probalbly right also, but no extra heat in the house is important too.

We have done much better in the boat with solar, wind and LEDs than we have in the house, and driving is a must. Do bike and walk and BBQ when we can to keep the heat out.
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  #453  
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Well, I just had to look up what a TLUD stove was, interesting. You are probalbly right also, but no extra heat in the house is important too.

We have done much better in the boat with solar, wind and LEDs than we have in the house, and driving is a must. Do bike and walk and BBQ out doors when we can to keep the heat out.
No, he is not right. The beauty of the TLUD is that it gasifies the material by the process of pyrolysis and is actually carbon negative.
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  #454  
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No; it's not carbon negative. It's "considered" carbon negative because you end up with charcoal. That does not mean that there was not a chemical reaction that released gasses and particulate matter. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing (tilling carbon back in to your garden); but to say it results in less pollution is a bit misleading. There are still emissions related to the pyrolysis and I don't think tars, particulates, and methanes are things you want to be breathing in every day when you cook dinner.
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  #455  
Old 06-04-2010
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No; it's not carbon negative. It's "considered" carbon negative because you end up with charcoal. That does not mean that there was not a chemical reaction that released gasses and particulate matter. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with what you are doing (tilling carbon back in to your garden); but to say it results in less pollution is a bit misleading. There are still emissions related to the pyrolysis and I don't think tars, particulates, and methanes are things you want to be breathing in every day when you cook dinner.
Keel, I'm no scientist so I can only go by what I read. And I've read just about everything on the subject that I can find.

"Design with the correct secondary air flow ensures
near-stoichiometric combustion that allows attainment of peak combustion temperatures with accompanying
high water boiling efficiencies (up to 50% for vessels of practical relevance) and very
low emissions (of carbon monoxide, particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen)."

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/10mar2010/627.pdf

"Paul’s TLUD stoves have been tested and shown to produce very low emissions of CO and particulates."

5 Gallon (22-liter) TLUD Stove for Biochar | BioEnergy Lists: BioChar (or Terra Preta)

"Recognized as a “carbon neutral” initiative; In fact would be "carbon negative" when the charcoal is dumped back into the soil."

TLUD Gasifier Stoves - A wood stove with a difference | Servals Automation Pvt Ltd


This last site has a chart at the bottom that shows carbon monoxide and particulate matter emissions for various stoves, but it's so small I can't read it.

I don't mean to hijack this thread. But I think this is relevant and important. Perhaps less so for the developed world, but the technology could potentially save many lives in the third world. As well as improving crop yields and improving soil fertility and sustainability.


"Respiratory infections caused by smoke from indoor cooking fires common in the Third World could be reduced drastically through the use of inexpensive, more efficient stoves and modestly cleaner fuels, according to researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, and Princeton University who monitored illness and pollution levels for three years in a Kenyan village."

University of California - UC Newsroom | Reducing Respiratory Illness from Indoor Cooking Fires in Third World
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  #456  
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You just made my point. You can't apply THIRD WORLD SCENARIOS to our first world way of life. Just because it's cleaner than burning wood in a standard fire does not mean it's cleaner than burning natural gas or use of electricity. These TLUD stoves (etc) are being developed to reduce emissions in 3'rd world nations where they don't have power/gas infrastructure and appliances are cost prohibitive. In comparison to a standard cooking fire a TLUD stove is carbon negative; but ONLY in comparison to cooking over a campfire. This is where so many "greenies" get it in their head that they are doing something good for the environment; when really they are going backwards with respect to the developed world.

The burning of wood relative to natural gas or coal is not carbon neutral or negative. You still have utilized a carbon based fuel source to produce thermal energy and BTU for BTU the energy consumed is the same. The difference is that a TLUD stove or similar device has combustion products that are worse for you than the CO2 and H2O that comes off of a gas stove. The combustion products are Tars (creosotes); H2, and methane or formaldehyde (if oxygen is restricted too much). Tars are very bad for your health over the long term; and if your TLUD stove it not burning the methane (reducing it to CO2) it is 25x worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2 (atom for atom).

If you burn your TLUD stove; you can measure how much carbon you emitted by weighing the wood before burning and the charcoal after. The difference in weight is roughly the amount of CO2/tars/methanes you produced or emitted. Remember, the earth has vast quantities of methane trapped in the crust; and if we don't use it for fuel it will vent into the atmosphere at some point anyway; and methane molecules are 25x worse than CO2 (which is why environmentalists are also against livestock consumption).
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Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
(which is why environmentalists are also against livestock consumption).
No they're not, that's just silly to propose. I realize there are some out there that do say something like that but it's not a sustainable idea. The thought process is much more that they would like to see much more sustainable practices and less production as there are far too many people that waste food. We don't need to have so many animals for consumption and it is much healthier to cut down the amount of red meat that is consumed.

Agreed on the stove though.. burning wood pellets in that particular stove is very efficient and has it's merits but is definitely not carbon neutral. You're still burning something, putting off toxins in the air. Not to mention the production of it, delivery (in bags made of oil for the most part) and the whole manufacturing process.

I get it though, it's pretty good and seems kind of attractive for a BBQ rather than straight charcoal or briquettes.

I see the spill has reached Florida now and will be heading up the east coast and probably south to the northern areas of cuba and all those nice little islands down that way.. what a shame. That's somewhere I would have really liked to go.
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Ya we're screwed now. The radio has been reporting all day about the oil getting to Pensacola. Let the fun begin.
I'm sure glad no one is dragging their feet on this.
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  #459  
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The smell is awful here on the Alabama coast...takes your breathe away
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  #460  
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Originally Posted by GraemeInCanada View Post
No they're not, that's just silly to propose. I realize there are some out there that do say something like that but it's not a sustainable idea. The thought process is much more that they would like to see much more sustainable practices and less production as there are far too many people that waste food. We don't need to have so many animals for consumption and it is much healthier to cut down the amount of red meat that is consumed.
I'm not the one proposing it. All we ever hear from the vegans and environmentalists is that cattle and other livestock produce large quantities of methane and the methane is much worse for the environment than the CO2. They consider the consumption of beef, swine, and milk "unsustainable" for these reasons and the volume of grain resources required to produce the beef, swine, and milk. (not that the human population is unsustainable at 7 billion as it continues to grow exponentially). It does not matter so much whether we eat red meat, swine, dairy, chicken, or fish; it's the fact that there are 7 billion of us that need sustenance. That's a big reason why vegans promote eating nothing but fruits, veggies, grains, nuts; because it's the lowest net impact to the environment, and considered sustainable.

Quote:
Agreed on the stove though.. burning wood pellets in that particular stove is very efficient and has it's merits but is definitely not carbon neutral. You're still burning something, putting off toxins in the air. Not to mention the production of it, delivery (in bags made of oil for the most part) and the whole manufacturing process.

I get it though, it's pretty good and seems kind of attractive for a BBQ rather than straight charcoal or briquettes.
As I said before; it's more about what you are emitting. Burning natural gas results in CO2 and water. That's as clean as it gets. If your NG stove is properly adjusted that's about as clean and efficient as you can be. I don't know about the safety aspects of cooking over an open fire of wood pellets; it might be fine, or it could be very bad depending on what the pellets are comprised of. Charcoals have had most of the tars and aromatics burned off; so it might be safer in terms of carcinogens transferred to the food. But barbecue is also known to be a source of oral, throat, lung, and stomach cancers if you consume it daily; regardless of the fuel source (a gas grill might be a bit safer but I don't know). That's not to say I don't like charcoal BBQ food...

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 06-04-2010 at 05:06 PM.
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