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  #71  
Old 03-21-2011
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Good to know I can risk a post here.
My shake down yesterday was a disaster.
Headed out in good warm calm conditions intending to put it all up and check everything was connected OK.
Weather turned sour about half a mile out, white hoeses every were main jammed round the roller boom and the Jib ran out in an wind assisted uncontrolled unfurl.
Still I was out.
Safe sailing
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  #72  
Old 03-21-2011
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Well smack,

My sail yesterday was probably a BFS. Looked up wind speeds at the marina, they were in the 30-35 range from 11am to 3pm, 3-5 was 25-30. Being as the race started about 12:05, finished about 3:20..... I guess we were out when race specs say no racing with sustained winds over 22mh! eeps, I guess that is why the two most recent FC;s of club were out, no one else but the C&C that tried to sail with a full main, and a rollerreefed genoa. He had NO reefs in that thing! Could not believe it.

Oh well, not to go look at some tide charts to see if I can find a current at the buoy........We did 1st in division and 2nd overall, then again, the 2n OA was dead last too!LOLOL

marty
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  #73  
Old 03-22-2011
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centaur - sounds like a rapidly flawless deployment of the sails brother! Nicely done!

bluto - dude, 30-35 is BFS. I don't care how you cut it.

+++++++++++++++

Now, remember people, this thread is for AFOC-level sailing...pleasant, no-heel-flat, chatting in the cockpit while eating cucumber and pate sandwiches and drinking tea, sails puffily lazing about, daintily quiet so you can hear your kids fighting down below, etc.

Don't get me wrong....this mellowness is a great part of sailing. It's needed on occasion. Hence this thread.

But if it's blowing 30+ screeching through your rigging, your sails are reefed/completely bladed out, your admiral is puking her cucumber and pate sandwiches over the side while being buffeted by green water, your kids are completely silent and trembling in the v-berth, and your mad cursing at the helm can barely be heard over the din...THAT goes in the BFS thread.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-22-2011 at 08:51 AM.
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  #74  
Old 03-22-2011
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Smack, what does “AFOC” mean? And how does it relate to nice, easy going sails?

The Smacktanic is looking pretty good and if you are constantly moving at hull speed, you must be doing something right. Your photos look pretty interesting. Would you care for a little kibitzing? Your mainsail has a lot of belly and the draft is way far forward and you say that you have max halyard and outhaul on? Something doesn’t sit right with me. Can you do a couple of things for me? Get your “P” and “E “ dimensions and mark those locations on your mast and boom with black electrical tape. Then, the next time you have the main down for cleaning (or in your case, repairing), measure it too (it might have a shrunken bolt rope or streched Dacron.) Use the marks as a triming guide so you see if halward and outhaul are really working for you. Is your bolt rope in the boom track?

Your clew reef line is all wrong. The line should go up through the new clew and back down to the boom (I think the previous owner tied it to that eye strap on the boom.) The reefing line should also be lead the end of the boom as it not only pulls down, but also back, so you get a nice flat sail. You also have a ‘flattening reef” which is that clew just above the regular one. If you run a line from that (lot of guys splice the line to the clew) back to the end of the boom you can flatten the lower third of the sail when the wind pipes up. That way, you can fly your main at full hoist longer, before you resort to reefing

You have way too much tension on your topping lift. That line should be slack when sailing. When it is taught, it takes away the effectiveness of your vang which you need as you have end boom sheeting. Speaking of which, your vang is backwards, cleat should be on the lower fiddle block. Adjust the angle of the cam cleat if necessary. Or better yet, route it back to the edge of the coach roof and put the cleat there. You will find that you will use the control a lot more if you can readily reach it.
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  #75  
Old 03-22-2011
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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Smack, what does “AFOC” mean? And how does it relate to nice, easy going sails?
Ahh - ancient history...

"AFOC" refers back to when I first came to this site a few years ago - drawn in as a newb by the best sailing thread in the history of sailing forums: Fight Club For Sailors.

Upon my enthusiastic agreement with the fact that sailing big is all that, I was jumped by a bunch of prudish, uptight, angst-ridden, manchicks that ensured me that sailing big is stupid and will immediately kill anyone that attempts it. This clique of goofs were collectively known as AFOCers since they all huddled in the following thread to complain about newbs and plan ambushes on people they didn't like: I'm and ass and full crap

To save everyone having to read the thousands of pages from each thread, here's a quick summary (where AFOC and POS crew are the same bunch):

Fight Club Lurker Orientation

It's all better now. They came around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
The Smacktanic is looking pretty good and if you are constantly moving at hull speed, you must be doing something right. Your photos look pretty interesting. Would you care for a little kibitzing?
Hell yeah! That's why I post photos of my crappy sails. On the one hand, I know I'll get blasted for everything I do wrong. But that's how I'll learn. From guys that actually know and do. So, seriously, kibitz away any time!

As for speed, I'm definitely not CONSTANTLY hitting hull speed, but I'm getting better for sure...especially when there's a nice stiff wind. I still suck at milking light wind conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Your mainsail has a lot of belly and the draft is way far forward and you say that you have max halyard and outhaul on? Something doesn’t sit right with me. Can you do a couple of things for me? Get your “P” and “E “ dimensions and mark those locations on your mast and boom with black electrical tape. Then, the next time you have the main down for cleaning (or in your case, repairing), measure it too (it might have a shrunken bolt rope or streched Dacron.) Use the marks as a triming guide so you see if halward and outhaul are really working for you. Is your bolt rope in the boom track?
First, keep in mind that this is a really old main - very bagged out. And what you see in photo 1 is the sail on a very close haul, and photo 2 on a beam/broad reach. I do have the halyard seriously cranked - and the outhaul as cranked as I could get it. I need to re-rig the outhaul to give it more purchase. And yes, bolt rope is in the boom track.

All that said, I'll do the measurements you recommend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Your clew reef line is all wrong. The line should go up through the new clew and back down to the boom (I think the previous owner tied it to that eye strap on the boom.) The reefing line should also be lead the end of the boom as it not only pulls down, but also back, so you get a nice flat sail. You also have a ‘flattening reef” which is that clew just above the regular one. If you run a line from that (lot of guys splice the line to the clew) back to the end of the boom you can flatten the lower third of the sail when the wind pipes up. That way, you can fly your main at full hoist longer, before you resort to reefing
Got it. Right now the reefing line does run to a sheave on the boom - but the sheave is just aft of that 1 reef cringle - not far enough back. I'll work on the rigging for that and get it right.

Had no idea about the "flattening reef". Very cool. I'll rig that as you say as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
You have way too much tension on your topping lift. That line should be slack when sailing. When it is taught, it takes away the effectiveness of your vang which you need as you have end boom sheeting. Speaking of which, your vang is backwards, cleat should be on the lower fiddle block. Adjust the angle of the cam cleat if necessary. Or better yet, route it back to the edge of the coach roof and put the cleat there. You will find that you will use the control a lot more if you can readily reach it.
On the topping lift...I'll loosen it. It's not really rigged correctly anyway for any significant adjustment...which leads me to a question: Does the TL do much for sail trim or is it primarily to hold the boom up when slack?

On the vang, I actually flipped it a few months ago to make adjustment easier and quicker from the cockpit. Even so, aside from the very basic understanding that the vang helps keep the boom down on reaches/run, I'm not really sure about when/how to make use of it apart from that.

Thanks for taking the time to critique (same to Bubble, Bluto, etc.). It's always good to get feedback.
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  #76  
Old 03-22-2011
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The topping lift is just to hold the boom up when the main is down, not for sail trim.

Do they race on your lake? If you sign on as crew for a local racer, you'll learn a lot, very quickly.
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  #77  
Old 03-22-2011
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[Smack, as Bubble said, the topping lift only supports the boom when the sail is down. Keep it on while hoisting (and lowering) the main so the slugs won’t bind in thier track. Mains usually stat bagging out from the leach first (caused by constant poor trim or flogging while motoring). To check for that, hoist on a calm day (or in an upwind slip). Release the TL, but no vang and just the minimal mainsheet tension. Stand back and check to see if the boom is perpandicular. The lower the boom end, the more blown the sail. If your TL is too short, get a longer line. It doesn’t support much weight, so you can get cheap, quarter inch line to replace it.

From your picture, you can see that the belly is deep and the draft is way forward. This is a “power up” trim which is great for accellerating from tacks and puffs, but inefficient for maintaining speeds. It gets you heeled over, but wouldn’t you want to convert that force that is shoving your boat under water to instead be the force that is driving you forward? Banding the mast and boom will help us in figuring out how to pull the draft back.


When the boom is over the traveller track, use the mainsheet to adjust twist (you have a nice “closed” leach in the photo). When the boom is no longer over the track, the vang controls twist and mainsheet does the angle of attack. Going deep, you want a closed leach and a lot of van pressure. Likewize, in a big puff downwind, you want to instantly release vang so you don’t round up. The van is a lot easier to control when the cam cleat is on the lower fiddle block. It is too easy for it to slip out of reach with the way you have it now. You should be able to adjust the angle of the cam cleat on the block. If that doesn’t help you, consider splicing in a short (six inches?) pendant on the lower block. You can eye splice some dynema or make up a wire pendant at your local West Marine.
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  #78  
Old 03-22-2011
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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
[Smack, as Bubble said, the topping lift only supports the boom when the sail is down. Keep it on while hoisting (and lowering) the main so the slugs won’t bind in thier track. Mains usually stat bagging out from the leach first (caused by constant poor trim or flogging while motoring). To check for that, hoist on a calm day (or in an upwind slip). Release the TL, but no vang and just the minimal mainsheet tension. Stand back and check to see if the boom is perpandicular. The lower the boom end, the more blown the sail. If your TL is too short, get a longer line. It doesn’t support much weight, so you can get cheap, quarter inch line to replace it.

From your picture, you can see that the belly is deep and the draft is way forward. This is a “power up” trim which is great for accellerating from tacks and puffs, but inefficient for maintaining speeds. It gets you heeled over, but wouldn’t you want to convert that force that is shoving your boat under water to instead be the force that is driving you forward? Banding the mast and boom will help us in figuring out how to pull the draft back.


When the boom is over the traveller track, use the mainsheet to adjust twist (you have a nice “closed” leach in the photo). When the boom is no longer over the track, the vang controls twist and mainsheet does the angle of attack. Going deep, you want a closed leach and a lot of van pressure. Likewize, in a big puff downwind, you want to instantly release vang so you don’t round up. The van is a lot easier to control when the cam cleat is on the lower fiddle block. It is too easy for it to slip out of reach with the way you have it now. You should be able to adjust the angle of the cam cleat on the block. If that doesn’t help you, consider splicing in a short (six inches?) pendant on the lower block. You can eye splice some dynema or make up a wire pendant at your local West Marine.
Now that is a sail trim clinic! Thanks GB. I've got some gear to buy, banding to do, and practice to enjoy. I added your posts to the Salt's thread. Great stuff. Thanks, man.

However, I'll buy from SN. Way cheaper and way more fun than WM.
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  #79  
Old 03-22-2011
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centaur - sounds like a rapidly flawless deployment of the sails brother! Nicely done!
Thank feck I put stop knots in the sheets. Reckon I,ll be ready for BFS posts when I get round to sailing with one wet shoe.
Hardly likely in a Centaur.
Safe sailing.
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  #80  
Old 03-27-2011
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Well, 2 of 3 races canceled due to lack of wind, one that did go off, finished 2nd OA, even with a faster class starting 5 min behind me. still go 1st AS in division, and somehow with 40 secs to spare, 1st OA! never had that happen, so hopefully tomorrow continues with some wind.............felt good at least tonight! or was it the 2 beers, 3 glass's of vino at the dinner party?!?!?!?!
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