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  #1  
Old 06-26-2010
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Hands Across the Sand

I have organized an event at Liberty State Park near Liberty Landing Marina in Jersey City, NJ right across from New York City. We start gathering at 11:00 am this morning and will join hands at 12 noon to show our discontent with off-shore drilling. I feel this is HIGHLY sailing related. Cutting corners and corporate greed has destroyed the Gulf for cruisers for many years to come. Its high time to be seeking viable alternatives. We need fuel, I know, but we need the oceans more. I hope to see you there if you are nearby. Visit the Hands Across the Sand website for more information.
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Old 06-26-2010
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Gil

while you are standing there...look east at that city...and what lies between you and that city..

Now tonight, do the same thing...

and two things ...tell me how you tell those 7-8 million people their way of life has to stop....

and then tonight when the tops of all those scrapers are lit, such that you can see them from miles away...

tell me WHY, we have not reduced our energy consumption. Simply turning off 80% of all that light would go a long way.

Then Monday while you are at work, research the topic of fuel usage by mode/method.....I think you will find that if somehow you could stop every car/bus/truck from running - it would not make any appreciable difference in oil usage, and it would not put a dent in emissions produced...and how much of a toxic soup is in that river...I have a friend who was NYFD diver, and he had to HAZMAT for every dive he made, the water is that bad..

Are they related, oil and water pollution...?? Don't know, but they both need attention NOW.
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Old 06-26-2010
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Hot damn. I always wanted to hunt whales. Huh? You mean, you didn't consider that? We can discuss it at the same pow wow in the sand. See, when you remove crude oil you must replace it with something. Environmentalists are all about biofuels replacing crude oil, so let's sharpen up those harpoons and get ready! Yeah, did you know that? Petroleum saved the whales. The biofuel oil they were hunted for was replaced by crude oil. Stop whaling because nearly all of the uses for whale oil have been replaced by synthetic means, and what does that mean? Crude oil.
I live on the Gulf, always have. The Deepwater Horizen accident didn't have to happen. They could've hit the same reserves angle drilling from 5 miles out. Any sport fisher or diver will praise the rigs for the marine havens they become, and a blowout is much more easily handled at 300ft as opposed to 5,000ft. Thanks to the environmentalists, the potential accident has become reality by makiing it so much more difficult to get at the oil. This whole thing would've been over 6 weeks ago in shallow water. So, the disaster they thought to prevent has now happened, only it isn't over, and I bet it's much worse than they already imagined. Did BP cut corners? I don't doubt it. That's why sensible regulations and on-site inspectors should be standard. Oil has twice as much power as coal, pound for pound, and we have huge reserves of both. I'm all for alternatives, but you do not just stop over night. Replacing crude with bio makes as much sense as using electric motors to turn generators to recharge batteries that run the motors that run the generators. It doesn't work. Take crude out and you lose clothing, packaging for food, electricity, tires, gas, medical supplies, fertilizer, everything. Alternative fuels are a small supplement, not a replacement, and until we can all go to Wally's and get our own personal "Mr. Fusion" units, it's petroleum that rules the day. Get that through your head and get out of the way. You come up with something better and I'm right there with ya. We do not yet live in the Star Trek Universe. Hey, you may be the nicest person on the planet, and I'm sure you mean well, but this isn't helping. BTW, BP just struck oil at 2 1/2 times the depth of the Deepwater Horizen site in the southern Hemisphere and what do you know? No explosions. Hmmmm
Planes crash, we make 'em better. People die in cars, we make 'em better. Spaceships explode, we fix it. A well leaks.....we quit?

Last edited by seabreeze_97; 06-26-2010 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 06-27-2010
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"We start gathering at 11:00 am this morning and will join hands at 12 noon to show our discontent with off-shore drilling"

I dont know much, but the oil company had a bad day, getting what we all need and use OIL. A mistake was made and some damage is done. You want to get some like minded soels and persue you point of view. Good luck to you but would'nt it be more worthy to get the same group together and offer help and support to the cleanup.
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Old 06-27-2010
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I'm with seabreeze 100% on this, enviro groups have admirable intent. BUT poor planning.

I am all for saving the planet, but think the groups should take a good hard look not just at the options, but also at the 'worse case' scenarios in case of disaster

Pushing drilling rigs into deep water has only made it far more devastating and harder to clean up/repair when something happens.
If the same problem had occurred on shore it could have been straightened out and cleaned up in a couple days, and the environmental damage could have been easily contained.

Ken.
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Old 06-27-2010
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Kd3pc,
Yeah, man, exactly. What's the quote? Be the change you want to see. Turn off your lights. Ride a bike to work. Every little bit helps.

Seabreeze 97,
Huh? You mean they grow corn and hemp in whales?? I had no idea Monsanto had stooped to that! Seriously though, your logic is flawed. Shallow water drilling is about as safe as blow-drying your baby in the bathtub. Remember Ixtoc? Pretty dang shallow, pretty big mess. You are right about one thing Horizon didn’t have to happen and if they hadn’t poked that hole in the ocean floor, it wouldn’t have. There is an alternative out there. Problem is, the ugly American and the corporate bottom line feeders present one helluva road block to an alternative future. Oh and by the way, I am actually a bit of a jerk when I get pissed off, and every ounce of oil dropped into our oceans pisses me off.
“Planes crash, we make 'em better. ---and they still crash! hmmm…--- People die in cars, we make 'em better ---and people still die in them, hmmmm---. Spaceships explode, we fix it ---don’t get me started on what a waste of $$ and environmental disaster the NASA bozos are---. A well leaks.....we quit?” ---YES. Please!---

SimonV,
Sure. Let me just get all these people together and clean up a mess that wouldn’t have happened if we were listened to in the first place. Would you like us to stop by and wax your boat while we’re at it? Mow your lawn? ---Actually I will be volunteering to help clean up. I do own a little pickup to help me get supplies to the boat as I get her as off-grid as humanly possible... Care to join me?---

Ken,
If you were asked to choose between saving the planet and preserving your lifestyle I have a feeling I know which way you would lean.

Look, I don’t expect an overnight change. It wasn’t exactly overnight where we as a great nation went from fighting for our more perfect union to driving our fat asses from McDonalds to Walmart and back to Mcdonalds in our Hummers. That took time. I think it is high time to move in another direction. I am not a scientist, and I don’t have the alternative fuel source cooking in my garage. But someone does. Why not give them some funding? And why not join hands to show that we are displeased with off shore drilling. I and my fellow environmentalists are proud of our day yesterday and cynical complacency will never take that away from us.
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Last edited by GilStump; 06-27-2010 at 01:24 PM. Reason: bad punctuation
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Old 06-27-2010
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Its funny how many thousands of years people have lived on our blue planet without the use of oil, and now all of a sudden it is detrimental to life to be without it? I guarantee that the health of our gulf and that of the oceans is much more detrimental to life than living without oil.

We shouldn’t be drilling for oil in any ocean near shore or off shore period, because it is never without risk and has not been proven safe ever!
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Old 06-27-2010
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Oil isn't so Evil

I have spent more than 20 years of my life cleaning up environmental disasters and I can say without reservation that crude oil is the least of the chemical evils. In some cases petroleum can be beneficial to the environment, long term.

By far the worst (not the biggest) environmental impacts are made in food production, electronics manufacturing, and so called green energy ie battery mfg, cfl bulbs etc.

So GilStump, if you really want to make an impact on the environment you should start a crusade to eliminate cfl's (that will be putting mercury in our water supply in a couple of decades) and computors that have and will continue to damage the environment with heavy metals and chlorinated compouds used in mfg.
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Old 06-27-2010
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We are evolving. Oil has been and continues to be an important part of our evolution.

To continue to evolve it may be necessary to reduce our use of oil. Drastically.

It seems this argument always comes down to oil or no oil. That's stupid.
Oil just like everything else on this earth is here to be used. In moderation.

It would be pretty hard to fabricate a solar panel or wind generator without the use of oil. So obviously we are going to continue to need it.
I'm pretty sure that Gil is willing to acknowledge this.

My gripe, and I think it's shared by a lot of people, is that progress toward developing and encouraging alternative energy sources is held back by the fact that oil has been so abundant and profitable.
Why can we buy a GPS or a laptop for a fraction of the cost of what they were a few years ago, but solar panels seem to be just about as expensive as they ever were.

There is no question in my mind that the powers that be, whether they be political or corporate are keeping us in the oil age.
They stop making profits when the oil stops flowing.
Oh, the "they" that I refer to is people like you and me. People who are simply playing the game by the rules. People who are trying to make money. Because after all, That's the name of the game. MONEY.

If the tragedy in the Gulf doesn't teach us that we need to focus intently on learning to live in harmony with nature, then nothing will.
Us humans seem to feel that we are so smart that we can live outside the rules of nature and not eventually have to pay the price for it.
We feel that we can deplete the land and simply continue to add chemicals to make up for it.

Why are humans the only autonomous beings on earth that don't compost their feces? Instead we use precious drinking water to send it down a pipe to be chlorinated and treated and buried somewhere where it will be wasted. Instead of simply returning it to where it came from where it can go back into the food chain.
Why?
Because we think we are smarter than mother nature. How freaking arrogant we are. And that's just one example.

Nobody but a fool would contend that the human race can simply stop using oil overnight. But there is no reason that we can't use a lot less than we do by simply making some small sacrifices or putting in a little effort. We have to start reordering our priorities.

I hate the blame game that is taking place in the wake of this tragedy. We are all to blame and none of us are to blame.
We, they, us have all played our parts in getting the world to where it is today, and we've been playing by the rules of the game.

It's time for the rules to be changed.

Some of us believe that God has made us stewards of this earth. If that's true, then we had better start learning from our mistakes.
It's not too late.
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Old 06-27-2010
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What about geothermal and nuclear power...
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonie5961 View Post
I hope that this doesn't qualify as off-topic forum material... but I can't resist.

To be without petroleum is not detrimental to life... just quality of life. Look around you-chances are that everything you see is in some way affected by cheap oil. There is a reason that the poorest of today live more comfortably than the richest of a few hundred years ago.

You may eliminate the risk of oil spills by outlawing every type of drilling known to man. What are the alternatives?

Sun? The manufacture of solar cells produces toxic byproducts.

Wind? Nah, that disrupts bird migratory patterns. Plus, I'm pretty sure that windmills rely on petroleum based products to function.

Hydro-electric? Environmentalists cry foul because this disrupts river flow, resulting in heat build up and lack of oxygen which kills river plant life. Plus, it is hard on fish.

Humans could power bicycle-driven generators, but human power produces very smelly, bio-hazardous by-products which must be flushed down special porcelain receptacles (which are very wasteful of water). Plus, all of those burning calories would drive up the cost of food... which would already be sky-high as petroleum is no longer used in agriculture, and any surpluses have been eliminated by the resulting global famine.

Oil... as dirty as it seems, is a naturally occurring substance. It is cheap, both in financial terms, and its impact in the big scheme of things.

I am more concerned about the dispersant being pumped everywhere to break up the big blobs. To introduce extra chemicals to the equation in an attempt to make the situation look less gruesome is criminal, in my opinion.

Yes, oil spills happen. It sucks. If we didn't have oil, we would be dealing with insurmountable famine from the lack of cheap agriculture. We would not have affordable consumer goods. We would not have the quality of life that we have today.

There isn't any way that we could turn out backs to oil without suffering major consequences- it just won't happen.

What may happen however, is that Americans jump on the bandwagon and join our politicians in "putting a boot heel on the throat" of oil producers. If we demonize and pass enough punitive anti-oil legislation that we drive companies out of American waters- and into Chinese,Cuban, Mexican, etc., they will have absolutely no oversight. AND we will still suffer from spills when they happen.
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