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  #21  
Old 07-09-2010
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Our sails are always up. It's a SAILBOAT and burning $3.50/gallon diesel at 6kn sucks. Will motorsail until there isn't enough wind to keep the sails from luffing.
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  #22  
Old 07-09-2010
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The reason I have a sailboat is that I enjoy sailing. If there is a choice between motoring and sailing, I'll take sailing when it is practical. Even so I I spend a lot of time motoring. Puget Sound winds tend to come from either the North or South. So, if there is wind (a big "if" in the summer months), it is likely to be on your nose. We also have a fair amount of current. So if you are trying to actually get somewhere, instead of just doing a day sail, all too often wind and current conspire against you.

Last weekend we went South with no wind. Typical for around here. We motored the entire way. The next day returning (July 4th) we had a lovely Southwest wind and were able to sail all the way home, at times reefing the main. Unfortunately, days such as those are rare here in the Summer months.
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  #23  
Old 07-09-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
I've only been sailing for a year, but I've been amazed to find that most sailors seem to consider sailing upwind too slow/difficult and tend to motor upwind, and sail back down. Experienced sailors are surprised when I tell them I sailed (rather than motored) anyplace against the prevailing winds. Even racers seem to mostly motor upwind if they're not in a race at the time. Why is this?

I find beating to be one of the easiest and most relaxing points of sail, since there's no worry about gybing, and heel angle can be reduced in a gust quickly, by just pointing a bit higher without adjusting sails.

I realize it's a bit slower than other points of sail- but if I wanted to get someplace quickly I wouldn't be sailing at all. My VMG might be ~3 knots at best directly upwind, compared to ~6 knots on other points of sail- both very slow compared to powerboats which can plane at ~30 knots.

I find sailing upwind to be much more fun, relaxing, have a better motion, and much cheaper (no fuel) than motoring directly upwind. I can't see myself motoring to windward unless there was some reason I couldn't sail (too much or too little wind, broken rig).
These are some pretty spot on comments. Until you leave home, and decide to do 200 miles, 500 miles. Let's just say 5000 miles. Then your talk goes into the toilet.

Have you sailed more than 50 miles away from your slip? Let's say you have 30 knots on the nose, so you tack, tack, and tack some more, and after hours you are still 40 miles away?

So let's up the anty, and you are 500 miles away, and all this tacking is doing you very little good. Night has set in, and you are hungry. Well that premade sandwich is awful nice, but the next day that premade sandwich is just something to fill your gut. On the third day that sandwich is less than desireable, but you eat it anyway, because you are starving, and you still have 300, maybe 250 miles to go.

I am only talking about one meal, and what about the other 2 meals a day, or more, because you are burning extra calories just hanging on on a beat. What if you gotta use the head. Have you ever had to sit on a head heeling 25 * with the boat rolling? Maybe you are puking your guts out all this time?

Hell no, I am not going to start that motor. I am a frikking sailor, and sailors don't. At least a real sailor doesn't use thier motor! If you're a real sailor you will do what it takes to get home, or your destination in a prudent fashion.

I have 2 questions for you. How far have you sailed away from your slip, and how many for crew? 5, 10, 35 miles maybe? I can appreciate your efforts, and exuberence, but until you get away from day sailing. You have just made some pretty ignorant remarks.

I also don't mean to be harsh, but sometimes reality can be a real slap in the face. So far I don't think you have met the reality of sailing distances, or even being on a schedule. Day sailing is sailing, but doing a distance is a whole lot more than you understand...... ......i2f
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2010
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Here in the PNW I see a lot more boats than I would have expected motoring to windward, but I think much of that is they are trying to scamper up to the San Juan Island crusing grounds so they can kick back and sail once they get there.

Me, I'd rather hoist the sails in a light breeze and alter my itinerary if the wind's not gonna get me there. But I keep an eye on the shoreline, 'cause if the current's taking me backwards, it's time for the motor.
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  #25  
Old 07-10-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
... having to tack repeatedly in those conditions can be very wearing.
Would it be less wearing if you were wearing instead of tacking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic
I also don't mean to be harsh, but sometimes reality can be a real slap in the face. So far I don't think you have met the reality of sailing distances, or even being on a schedule. Day sailing is sailing, but doing a distance is a whole lot more than you understand.
Assuming for a moment you're right and the OP has no experience on >50 mile trips, does this take away from the fact that there are way more sailors out there motoring all the way on their <50 mile trips? How many long distance, do-what-it-takes cruisers are out there compared to the number of weekend day-sailing-without-the-sailing cruisers?

I think it's still a valid point if you just limit, very slightly, whom you're talking about. Nobody's deriding experienced cruisers for making the intolerable tolerable.
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  #26  
Old 07-10-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
Would it be less wearing if you were wearing instead of tacking?



Assuming for a moment you're right and the OP has no experience on >50 mile trips, does this take away from the fact that there are way more sailors out there motoring all the way on their <50 mile trips? How many long distance, do-what-it-takes cruisers are out there compared to the number of weekend day-sailing-without-the-sailing cruisers?

I think it's still a valid point if you just limit, very slightly, whom you're talking about. Nobody's deriding experienced cruisers for making the intolerable tolerable.


I believe the original poster was. Anybody can beat for an afternoon. I did it for years where the wind was a constant 25-35 knots daily on S.F Bay. Everybody gets through life differently, and good for the OP to sail & not motor. We have all done it, but his remark was a wee bit degrading to those who do differently. As typed before. Sometimes we just need to get there even if it is just across the bay. Believe me I am waiting to hear what kind of sailing he has experienced in that year. ......i2f
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  #27  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
... his remark was a wee bit degrading to those who do differently. ... Believe me I am waiting to hear what kind of sailing he has experienced in that year.
I think you're taking offense where none was given, and being overly aggressive toward the OP.

It seemed obvious to me the OP was talking about local day sailors, cruisers and racers.

We rarely fire up the iron genny other than to transit the relatively narrow (by our sights), often crowded creek and canal that gets us to/from our slip. But there've been times... if we haven't been able to make at least close to 3 kts for an extended period, time to fire up the ol' A4 and head home. If the wind is going to be more than we're crewed for, down come the sails, on comes the engine and we head home.

There was one time, coming back from a race and it was getting late. Wind was on our nose and we couldn't make long tacks because we were in a narrow-ish passage. Wind was lightening. We looked at the time, looked at our progress, thought about it... thought about it again, said "screw this for a game of soldiers, we're tired and we wanna eat!" On came the engine and down came the sails. Ahhhh... 6 kts right for our next way point. Nice

We'll also motor for the start of a race if we're running late. Otherwise we'd prefer to sail so we can get a feel for what we're going to encounter.

Jim
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  #28  
Old 07-10-2010
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I fine i2f's post in #23 interesting. For my part, I'm more likely to motor on a day or weekend sail when I have guests that have to be back for work the next day. If I have a whole bunch of miles in front of me I figure statistics are on my side and just sail.

25 degrees is a lot of heel on most boats and slows you down. Reef.

Oh - we eat better than a bunch of premade sandwiches.
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  #29  
Old 07-10-2010
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When you tell someone they shouldn't be in a sailboat, because they are motoring upwind. I think that's just plain wrong. The OP doesn't know the reason, and it shouldn't matter to him. My very first sentence was he is pretty spot on with what he types, but the rules do change when you add distance. That's why I asked how far has he sailed.

What's he afraid about when it comes to gybing? I don't think because this is a worry of his. That he should stay home, and not sail. He should sail his vessel in any fashion he sees fit. Sailing to windward takes less concentration, and it has an exhilarting feel there's no doubt about that. It does get old after days of it. Why else do cruisers seek out following seas, and wind on the quarter?

I single-handed the Baja Haha in 93. Lat38 used my comment about the trip south. That year the winds were mostly from the south, so I nearly beat 1300 miles alone. Then I brought the boat back, and beat again back to S.F.. All of this on a 30ft. Columbia. Once for 48 hours I hand steered leaving Cabo going north, because the autopilot failed. I had to turn around, and hand steer back. It was a hell of a lot more pleasant going with the wind.

Aggressive, yep just a wee bit, and I apologize for that to the OP, and the members. Just don't tell me how to sail my boat. It's my boat, my fuel money, and it's my time........i2f
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  #30  
Old 07-10-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
.... You have just made some pretty ignorant remarks.

...... ......i2f
I was going to leave it like that, but IM2frolic is right. I was just being mildly sarcastic when I have said on post 16 "That's really amazing. That Catalina 22 is incredibly fast" as a comment to your claim that your "C22 goes to windward quite well in winds up to 30 knots ... I've hit 7-8 knots to windward in a 30 knot gust ". By your answer, on post 19, it seems that you believe that I was serious about that.

Making 7K or 8k against the wind is obviously impossible with a Catalina 22. I am not saying that you have not read that speed, but, depending if you saw it on the GPS or in the speed device, you were sailing on a very strong current or you need to calibrate your speed device.

Here you have a J24 speed prevision table. As you know a J24 is a racing boat bigger than your boat and much, much faster. These previsions are optimal speeds:

Speed Chart

You can see that this racing sailor on his racing boat is not able to do better than 5.6K at 45º of the true wind, with 24.3K of apparent wind. With carbon sails on a top boat, probably it is possible to do a lot better, but a lot better would be about 6.5K at 45º.

http://www.j24blog.com/wp-content/up.../j24_polar.pdf

So, you can see that your claim of 8k , against the wind on a Catalina 22 makes no sense (for doing almost 8k at 45º you woud need at least a J 122, on flat water, of course).

http://www.blur.se/polar/J122_polar_IRC.pdf

You say that: "Actually, my C22 goes to windward quite well in winds up to 30 knots with a heavy working jib and reefed main " and I believe ( not at 8k ) but you are talking of protected waters, in almost flat water.

If you travel you will find that 30k of wind on open seas, blowing for any considerable period of time, will result in troubled seas and waves bigger than 1.5 M. As I have said, try to sail your boat against + 20k of true wind and 2 M short waves and probably you will sail backwards.

I like your enthusiasm, but I believe you are making inaccurate remarks.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 07-10-2010 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Bad English
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