Inquest finds yacht name mix-up causes sailor's death - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 07-29-2010
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Edgewater, MD
Posts: 84
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
mpickering is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If I have understood currectly in the States, to sail offshore, or even to cross the Atlantic you will not need a license (that says you are able to do the job) nor any kind of mandatory equipment on the boat.
Other than state level training mandated for the class of vessel you are operating (varies by state) and Coast Guard required safety gear, yup, you can put land to transom be off, middle digit raised to "the Man" the whole way out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On most countries in Europe you need an offshore license (that you can only get after getting 3 or more other more basic licenses), you need a certified boat for offshore work (EC class A) and a mandatory requirement on equipment that include offshore liferaft, Epirb and a way of receiving long distance weather reports and (even if it is not mandatory on all countries) you need an insured boat (the marinas will nhot accept you if you do not have an insurance).

You can say that this takes away personal freedom... but who is going to pay for the search and rescue?

If we allow that badly prepared boats and sailors to do what they want in the future the freedom will finish for the rest of us. The costs of search and rescue operations are raising in such a way that it is a question of time that the contributors start to ask: Why am I paying a lot to allow some mad guys to do a dangerous thing?

It is absolutlly irresponsible to allow a boat offshore without am Epirb. It is dangerous to the sailors (and that it is their business) but will also make any search and rescue a very complicated and expensive affair, and that should also concern the ones that are paying that.

Regards

Paulo
So Paulo, how bad were things in the offshore world before the inventions of GPS and EPIRBs? People still set off in the age of LORAN, celestial navigation (a skill every offshore wannabe should learn; sextants don't need batteries), SSB and VHF and still got into trouble called for help and so on? Got any studies that show the improvements after the imposition of standards and licensing?

How much safety have those licenses actually achieved? Have they cut down on SAR costs and callouts? You can have all the ratings on papers and in databases for people and boats and people will still do stupid stuff or get into trouble thanks to Mother Nature. You can't escape it.

Maybe it is because people are so used to the idea that regulations and tests and licensing equates to competency and safety that people accept the imposition as reasonable. They've been so conditioned that this is normal that they never question its actual utility. You argue that unlimited freedom is dangerous and needs to be controlled. I argue just the opposite: that licensing and regulation makes things worse and lull people into a false sense of security. I would argue the availability of EPIRBs and the knowledge that tripping one will bring help on demand has increased SAR costs, not decreased them. Without them, you either disappeared or had to make your way until you pulled into port or got into range of someone via whatever working radio you have to scream for help and hope someone would hear.

Mini-Transat boats, for example, are required to NOT carry any comms more powerful than a VHF, weatherfax, SSB transmitter. GPS is limited to position only (no plotter), SSB receivers only for weather reports from shore and EPIRBs are carried only for emergencies. Even then, Minis disappear without a trace. And we still look for them.

Your licensing and standards also increase the costs of sailing and places it out of reach of the common citizen. You go price out the cost of the equipment your offshore requirements impose. Perhaps this is intended, perhaps a side effect. One of the things I like about the USA (and Canada, my country of origin) is that for the most part practically anyone with the desire to sail can find a way to do it. A cheap sailboat costs no more than a used car. Well within the means of average folk. Your requirements would remove that option from a lot of people where the equipment costs are more than the boat itself.

Let it bother you if you wish that the idea that anyone can do this without some bureaucrat checking off a box that grants you permission. As to who pays the cost, we all do by international agreement. I figured that would be seen as a good thing, all of us looking out for each other altruistically regardless of cost.

Part of being free is allowing people to go mad once in a while. One person's crazy is another's normalcy. I see going offshore as reasonable and leave the risk assessment to the person making the decision. They can be the only true judge of what is risky to themselves. You may not agree but part of being free is permitting people to make those choices.

Matt
__________________
SV South Paw
2000 Hunter 340
South River, MD
Star #6100
Annapolis, MD

Last edited by mpickering; 07-29-2010 at 03:31 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 07-29-2010
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,533
Thanks: 4
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Anything, Smack,

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Heh-heh. I read about that fil.

That guy is a true legend of sailing. I'd buy him a pint or four.


to keep him off the water!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 07-29-2010
DropTop's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 180
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
DropTop is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpickering View Post
Maybe it is because people are so used to the idea that regulations and tests and licensing equates to competency and safety that people accept the imposition as reasonable. They've been so conditioned that this is normal that they never question its actual utility. You argue that unlimited freedom is dangerous and needs to be controlled. I argue just the opposite: that licensing and regulation makes things worse and lull people into a false sense of security. I would argue the availability of EPIRBs and the knowledge that tripping one will bring help on demand has increased SAR costs, not decreased them. Without them, you either disappeared or had to make your way until you pulled into port or got into range of someone via whatever working radio you have to scream for help and hope someone would hear.
I'd like to buy you a beer sometime. You just put in words everything I was thinking!
__________________
Four Points - 1990 Hunter 27'

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 07-29-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 211
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Plumbean is on a distinguished road
Incidentally, it appears to me that the finding of the coroner in this case was exactly the opposite of what the title post indicates. I.e., mixing up the names in all likelihood had no impact on the outcome.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 07-29-2010
tdw's Avatar
tdw tdw is offline
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 14,353
Thanks: 5
Thanked 67 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 10
tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough tdw is a jewel in the rough
It seems silly to me that in this day and age anyone would go offshore without an EPIRB. That said I still believe that as sailors we all need to be prepared to take what the weather dishes out. We do after all choose to "go down to the sea in ships".

btw...I believe that Blessed Be was carrying an EPIRB and while I don't know whether either of these blokes had Yachmaster Offshore I do know that they both had many years of offshore cruising and racing experience. Why they didn't set off their EPIRB will probably never be known but it does suggest a sudden catastrophic event.

As for the cost of Australian SAR for stricken European yachts, I can remember only three major searches in recent years. A French woman, an English man and an American teenage girl. How many single handed yachts have gone around in the last ten years without any need for SAR ? How many coast hoppers have the USCG had to go out and find ?

This is a very emotive issue lets at least try and keep the debate on a rational level.
__________________
Andrew B

"Do you think God gets stoned? I think so... Look at the platypus." Robin Williams.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 07-29-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
Anyone in the U.S. can buy a SAILBOAT and take off for wherever they'd like. Licenses would probably not do much to change the numbers of SAR's . Look at handguns. Licences ARE required for them, yet the US is seen as the murder-by-gun capital of the world.

.....
The U.S. Coast Guard DOES does have lists of required equipment for vessels of different types and sizes. They are not equipped to stop every vessel to determine if they have each piece of required equipment, however. And EPIRBs are not a required item. If someone takes off for Tahiti short of sense or lifejackets, they can stop it if they see it. The scene is entirely different from Europe, however. Except for perhaps England, European countries have comparatively short coastlines. The state of Maine, by itself, has more than 10000 km of salt-water washing its jagged shores, and it is not the biggest state, nor the one with longest coast. There is no way to effectively control that much space with so many independent-thinking sailors. ...

Besides, isn't it usually the Australians (as in this thread) who are mounting the expensive SAR missions looking for dismasted or turtled Europeans most of the time? And the Europeans are the ones with licences!
Well that's not only the state of Maine that has a lot of water under its responsibility.
These are the waters where the Portuguese navy are responsible for SAR operations:

Last year, on these waters the Portuguese navy have done 662 SAR operations, saving 359 persons with a success tax over 95%.

I am not talking about controling. I am talking about responsibility. I am not talking about criminals, I am talking about normal people, sailors in particular.

If I have a car that has no insurance, I don't drive that car, not for fear of being controled (a very improbable event) but because I am responsible and I know that accidents happen. I know that if I have one with an insured car and criple or kill another person, even if it is not my fault, my life is going to the drain.

SAR operations are payed by the contributors and by the state. It is that way because the exponential increase of those operations due to recreational activities is a recent event. It is payed by states because they were meant for professional and commercial activities (fishing, transport) that have a meaningful pourpose and are of general interess.

Recreational boating increased hugely the number and cost of SAR operations to the point that most of them today are due to recreational boating. Today their costs are growing in a way that are unaffordable and injustifiable (for the contributor).

It is a question of time that not only boat insurance becomes mandatory but also the insurance companies become partly or totallay responsible for SAR costs in what concerns recreational boating. That's an aplication of the basic economical principle : The ones that use a service, should pay for it .

When that becomes a reality, if you have an accident and your boat is not properly equipped and you don't have an apropriate licence, the insurance will not pay (and I don't mean your boat, but the multi-million boat that you manage to damage ). If you are the target of a SAR operation and after being rescued, your insurance finds out that you don't have a proper licence to be offshore or your boat is not equipped to do it, you are done. You will have to pay the SAR, and that normally costs a lot more than most boats.

You are going to think how the insurance will know that the boat is equipped for offshore or not. That's simple. Here and in most European countries the boats are classified not only regarding where they can sail (EC classification) but regarding the way they were equipped (for coastal, for offshore or unlimited). The boat classification is forever, but the way the boat is equipped and its condition is checked every 5 years. So they will know what kind of equippement the boat has and if it is valid or not.

I believe this is going to be an inevitablity, but it can be delayed if sailors become more responsible and that normally means rules and regulations.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 07-29-2010
hellosailor's Avatar
Plausible Deniability
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,541
Thanks: 2
Thanked 82 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Matt-
"Mini-Transat boats, for example, are required to NOT carry any comms more powerful than" Most racing regulations prohibiting communications equipment (or for that matter, electronic instruments as a whole) are in place to prevent a boat from getting "outside assistance" in the form of weathercasts, routing, or information about competing boats.
That's a matter of leveling a playing field, and has nothing to do with safety matters. And, typically, it has no affect of safety equipment, which usually can be sealed and kept aboard anyway.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 07-29-2010
Classic30's Avatar
Once known as Hartley18
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,471
Thanks: 26
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Classic30 will become famous soon enough Classic30 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
It seems silly to me that in this day and age anyone would go offshore without an EPIRB. That said I still believe that as sailors we all need to be prepared to take what the weather dishes out. We do after all choose to "go down to the sea in ships".

btw...I believe that Blessed Be was carrying an EPIRB and while I don't know whether either of these blokes had Yachmaster Offshore I do know that they both had many years of offshore cruising and racing experience. Why they didn't set off their EPIRB will probably never be known but it does suggest a sudden catastrophic event.

As for the cost of Australian SAR for stricken European yachts, I can remember only three major searches in recent years. A French woman, an English man and an American teenage girl. How many single handed yachts have gone around in the last ten years without any need for SAR ? How many coast hoppers have the USCG had to go out and find ?

This is a very emotive issue lets at least try and keep the debate on a rational level.
Until I read this article, I would have thought that if you had proper radio gear and procedures (VHF, HF, emergency antennas..) EPIRBs were probably, maybe, an overkill - I mean, hey, ever since the Titanic disaster, yachtsmen the world over relied on radio to get them out of trouble - sure you NEEEED to have one, but.. how to call a Mayday over the radio is still the key thing drummed into you at Radio License training.

What this highlights to me is that it isn't the wind, oceans and sailor's experience that has changed, it's the emergency services and they way they handle the call when it comes in (or don't as the case may be) that's changed.. I didn't know that.

Although the volunteer Coastguards still do, it would seem that Australia's SAR people (and probably others elsewhere) are no longer sitting at the radio at all - they're sitting at a computer screen waiting for a GPS-equipped EPIRB out there somewhere in the world to go off and tell them all they need to know about who's in trouble and where they are. If they need further info, they MIGHT then decide to use the radio..

Food for thought.
__________________
-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 07-29-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
..
btw...I believe that Blessed Be was carrying an EPIRB and while I don't know whether either of these blokes had Yachmaster Offshore I do know that they both had many years of offshore cruising and racing experience. Why they didn't set off their EPIRB will probably never be known but it does suggest a sudden catastrophic event.

...l.
Yes you are right on both things:


"Blessed Be was equipped with a satellite phone, a life raft and a 406 Epirb which was not activated, and they had not answered calls on Channel 16.
......
'He is an extremely experienced and passionate yachtsman and has done many years of open ocean sailing,' ....


Whether the yacht had a collision at sea, or were struck by a sudden rogue wave, or hit a whale or floating container, the fact that these experienced sailors set off no distress signal points to a sudden and catastrophic event. No debris able to be linked to the yacht has ever been found. "

Sail-World.com : Yacht Blessed Be inquest - muddled name delayed search

I guess that there is always a risk that we have to be prepared to take.
Anyway, there was never a mayday call and the Epirb probably was not at the right place or was an older model without water activation.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 07-29-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,710
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SEMIJim will become famous soon enough SEMIJim will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
Operating a POWERBOAT generally does require a license.
I don't believe that's correct.

Jim
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.