A Good Starter Boat?

[trisstan87]

I have ambitions of ocean voyaging, but those ambitions are years on the horizon and until that time grows closer I want to begin living as much of the life as I can. Living in FL seems to offer me a tremendous amount of options for cheap boats. I have found three that I want to begin looking at but i'm still at the point experience wise where pictures with a spiffy summary can be deceitful. I was wondering if some more experienced sailors could just take a look at one or all of the boats in mind and discern as much from the posting as possible to see if I am missing anything before I take the next step of contacting the owners.
I am expecting to put around the buying price into whatever boat I get to make it sail able/possibler livable (At least for weekends or summer cruises to the Bahamas). I know that these boats are small (22'-24'ft) but I was really hoping to be able to live aboard by January to save A LOT of money potentially on rent and other living expenses. I feel like if I find a boat that isn't a lemon in this price range I can save money or break even on living expenses while being able to gain valuable experience and take some summer trips.
All comments are appreciated.
First Link: 22' O'Day Sailboat (1976)
1976 O'Day O'day sailboat for sale in Florida
Second Link: 1980 Glasstron Spirit 23'
1980 Glasstron Spirit sailboat for sale in Florida
Last Link: 1980 Hutchins com-pac 23'
1980 hutchins com-pac 23 sailboat for sale in Florida

[peikenberry]

frankly I would say lay out some money and have a marine surveyor look at the one you are most interested in. It will save you a lot of money in the long run.

Are you ready to live in a a closet? I live in a 35 foot motorhome and it has a bout 3 times the space of any of these boats. It can get very cramped at times. Also if you are doing it to save money forget it. Have you considered all of the expenses? It's not just buying a boat. Then there is berthing, registration, insurance, fuel, and some marinas charge for utilities.

My choice would be the O'Day. it has a solid reputation. But anyone of them would do if a survey says they are in good condition and don't need any major work. I had no idea Glastron made a sailboat. They are and exceptional manufacturer of power boats. Can't be too many of those around. I am not familar with the Hutchins at all.

However my personal favorite in this size is a Catalina 22.

[sailingdog]

I'd highly recommend you read the Boat Inspection Trip Tips thread I started, as it will help you determine whether any boats you look at are even worth going forward on, saving you the price of a survey on boats that aren't worth looking at further.

I would point out that you would probably be able to get a boat in sailable shape if you spent just a bit more money than your base budget, and could then reduce your "upgrade/refit/repair" budget to something far more reasonable. It is generally far less expensive to buy a boat in decent shape than it is to get the same exact model in fix-it-up shape and refurbish it.

I'd also recommend you look at John Vigor's book, 20 Small Sailboats To Take You Anywhere and James Baldwin's Boat List to get an idea of some of the boats that you should concentrate looking at. Another resource is Henkel's The Sailor's Guide to Small Cruising Sailboats, which discusses 300 boats ≤27' LOA.

I recently posted about a Compac 27 that was for sale that has been to the Bahamas. Connie has taken good care of this boat, as it was her home for the past several years. While it is a bit larger than the others you're looking at, it would be a much better choice IMHO for what you're looking to do and for living aboard. Any boat <25' LOA is going to be really tight as a liveaboard. Most will not have standing headroom. Many will not have a true marine head, and porta-potties can become a real PITA to deal with.

[trisstan87]

A surveyor charges 15-20$ per foot plus travel at times, the cost of which would end up being a large portion of the total boats cost. I have an Uncle who has worked at Boston Whaler 20+ years an hour away who has grown up sailing that I will get to survey any potential boats. I also have 'The Inspecting the Aging Sailboat by Don Casey' for study and reference.
I have considered the costs and paying rent on land would uneqiovcally be more in the end. You must pay for water and power on land as wall as water. Not to mention cable, internet, and anyother service you may have because you live in a home. I would only have the bare minimum insurance for the boat because of its value anyway.
My thinking is that going to the college I will be attending I can live during the week on the boat closer to the campus and during weekends travel the 45 minutes to my mothers. I also will be able to spend time doing what I love which is getting better at sailing, it's hard to put a price on that.
For those who would continue to comment on space or living conditions, I was an 0351 for over 2 years in the Marines. Believe me, I have roughed it way worse than a warm, DRY, quiet, if cramped, sailboat.

[trisstan87]

Dog you commented during a write-up. I actually have, and will, refer to the thread you started. I read your thread before I bought the book on inspecting old sailboats because your post made me aware of how important that knowledge can be. I have also consulted the Baldwin boat list. I just want a small cheapy to have to sail and be capable of a little local voyaging when the time arises.
Do you really think it is a better idea to lay out more money for the boat when refitting will still be necessary to some degree? My MAIN PRIORITY is to have the lowest possible total cost for a seaworthy boat.

[RXBOT]

First find a live aboard berth that is affordable and suitable location. Then find a boat that fits, easier to find the boat than the berth probably.

[sailingdog]

Trisstan—

Yes, I do... generally, refitting a boat is a lot more expensive than getting the boat in decent shape to begin with. This is especially true, with your intent of living aboard the boat. Many boatyards will not allow you to liveaboard a boat that is on the hard, especially if it is being worked on.

Often the price difference is enormous... some of the people on this forum have bought boats that have needed refitting and spent thousands of dollars more than they would have spent if they had bought the exact same make and model in near pristine shape. This doesn't even include all the time it has taken them to do the work or the massive discount they've gotten on doing the restoration by investing their sweat equity.

Sailingfool often writes something to the effect that many times people are so focussed on price, that they neglect to focus on what is really important—what value are you getting for your money. You don't want to buy a cheap boat—you want to buy a high-quality boat in good shape for as little money as possible. Cheap boats are often expensive... because they generally don't hold up as well over time and are generally not cared for as well as a higher-quality boat that is the same age. If you start with a really good boat to begin with, the chances that it will be in decent shape are much higher.

Originally Posted by trisstan87

Dog you commented during a write-up. I actually have, and will, refer to the thread you started. I read your thread before I bought the book on inspecting old sailboats because your post made me aware of how important that knowledge can be. I have also consulted the Baldwin boat list. I just want a small cheapy to have to sail and be capable of a little local voyaging when the time arises.
Do you really think it is a better idea to lay out more money for the boat when refitting will still be necessary to some degree? My MAIN PRIORITY is to have the lowest possible total cost for a seaworthy boat.

[puddinlegs]

Tristan, think of it as the 'self-interest' vs. 'enlightened self-interest'.

Self-interest says, "cheap..I'll fix it later... how expensive can a $1000 boat really be?"

Enlightened self-interest is exactly what sailingdog says. I'll copy and quote it one more time...."You don't want to buy a cheap boat—you want to buy a high-quality boat in good shape for as little money as possible." Read this over and over. It's your research mantra. Print it out and tape it to your fridge, and another copy to your bathroom mirror. Then have it printed on a T-shirt. Don't leave home or look at boats without it.

Keeping and maintaining a boat, even if it's given to you, is expensive and time consuming. It's either a life style choice which you make sacrifices for, or you're made of money and it doesn't matter.

[bljones]

Here's the way the low-buck live-aboard economics usually work:
A $3000 boat will end up costing you another $3000 in unforeseen costs during your first year, in addition to costs you have already planned for, simply because it is a "cheap boat". It has been a cheap boat for at least the last three owners, and because it is a cheap boat, nobody as put any money into it unless they had to- the rigging is likely in need of work, the sails are likely baggy and shot, the through-hulls are iffy, the wiring looks like your dog threw it up after another dog had eaten it and crapped it out... you get the idea. If the boat needed something that was going to cost serious money it either didn't get done, or corners got cut, and then the boat gets sold and it becomes somebody else's problem. I have a simple rule of thumb- don't expect much from sub -25 ft boats at less than $120 pr ft.
So, if a $3000 boat will end up costing you $6000, what do you get if you spend $6000 up front?
Often, you get $8000 worth of boat. In my experience as a small crusier bottom feeder, once your budget floats above $5k, the options really start to open up and you get into the realm of the "after refitting we decided to move up to a 30' er" sellers. They bought a good old boat five years ago, kept up with the maintenance, then outgrew it. And the best part is, down the road, you can still sell it for $6K. You can't sell a $3k boat that you put $3K into for $6k, unless it was already a $6k boat to start with, and none of the boats in your shortlist reach that level.

I looked at a lot of sub -25' $3k boats when we were shopping for the boat we have now. Every single one of them needed something major: outboard, sails, rigging, electrical, a new hull. For $6K we got a boat with a dodger and a bimini, full standing head room, autopilot, inboard diesel, furling genoa, marine head, etc.etc.

[grmitche]

Catalina 27 - knew a guy in SF that lived on 1 for a couple years after a divorce. It worked well. Head, etc. There are a couple on the east coast for <$10k, sail it home.