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Mid boom vs end boom sheeting

30K views 39 replies 12 participants last post by  puddinlegs 
#1 ·
Base on the sail shape and sail efficiency, Which one is better? I would think that end boom sheeting is better, because we can have a finer control over the traveler. Not sure if my thinking is right? :)
 
#2 ·
From the simple extent you are talking, yes, end boom is better. It also take less energy if that is the right word to change the boom setting.

I am assuming you are dealing with lines and sheave. It may be a 4-1 end vs needing a 6-1 if mid boom to easily move the boom.

I am not familiar with the German system. but it seems to be a pseudo mid boom, with the main sheet line fed back to the helm area and winches, to make it easier to operate.

If cruising, folks seem to like the cabin top, but I personally do not like it, because in shifty/gusty winds, and you are SH'ing the boat, it is hard to adjust the boom in gusts etc. Where as an end boom, is near the helm, so one can sail and adjust at the same time.

Marty
 
#6 ·
...
I am not familiar with the German system. but it seems to be a pseudo mid boom, with the main sheet line fed back to the helm area and winches, to make it easier to operate.

...
Marty
Hey Marty,

Most of the European cruiser racers bigger than 34ft are coming now with German sheeting system as standard (and with end boom sheating). The lines go along the boom to the front and then back to the winches.

Regards

Paulo
 
#3 · (Edited)
Its like BLT said.

End boom requires less purchase, but often is in the cockpit. The location and length of the traveller is also important. Many 'Bendy types' (Bene's, etc) have light, high aspect (in mast) mains and so have lightish gear for the mid boom sheeting. All aimed at keeping a big entertainment area clear in the cockpit.

Mid Boom traveller and thus the sheeting requires greater purchase and lines back to the cockpit. (Each block/guide will increase resistance as well as the chance for a 'kinked' sheet to jam - in which case you would have to leave the cockpit to clear it)

What I am trying to say is to seriously look at it, if you wish to change the sheeting position.
 
#23 ·
Thanks Mates. Just make sure I take all this in. The end boom sheeting only have the mechanical advantage. As far as sail shape is concerned, both is the same??? :)
I am not sure that is totally right... if you consider a boat with end-boom sheeting and look at the length of the traveler and then look at mid-boom sheeting and the length of the traveler, the mid-boom traveler is under the boom for a longer period of the sheeting arc. So the mid-boom traveler can control sail shape better. The mid-boom traveler can control twist further off the wind than end-boom, or so it seems to me.
 
#5 ·
I'd say sail shape control will not significantly differ with varying mainsheet setups, but the purchase required for the same degree of control will vary. An end-of-boom system has the best inherent mechanical advantage. The stiffness of the boom section probably plays a role too.

Hand-in-hand with the reduced power of same-tackle midboom sheeting come some other issues.. in most cases mid boom sheeting is led forward and then aft to the cabintop. This is often an awkward location, both from a convenience/reach perspective and from the fact that now you're often working within the confines of a dodger. This also impedes your visibility and sightlines for trimming.

The so-called German sheeting gets around this by bringing the sheet back down the decks to the coamings near the helmsman (often double-ended for access from either side) This allows reduced purchase requirements and improved speed assuming you'll be leading the ends to a convenient 2-speed winch.

The other aspect of mid vs end boom is the strength of the whole setup.. mid boom sheeting is more prone to (admittedly rare) boom failure, esp on a hard, unexpected jibe. The further forward the attachment the weaker the whole thing may be.. this is esp true if the modification has been made (perhaps to accomodate a dodger) without the required reinforcement of the boom at the attachment point.

One other comment.. the power of the mainsheet is most important close hauled.. after that (as the sheet is eased) the improved speed of a low power tackle is handier, except when jibing in a serious breeze due to the difficulty of handling the sudden change in forces. Once the sheet is eased, then the vang is as important as anything else for setting leech tension and controlling sail shape. IMO a good, powerful and easy-to-adjust vang is a critical sail trim and safety item.
 
#39 ·
The other aspect of mid vs end boom is the strength of the whole setup.. mid boom sheeting is more prone to (admittedly rare) boom failure, esp on a hard, unexpected jibe. The further forward the attachment the weaker the whole thing may be.. this is esp true if the modification has been made (perhaps to accomodate a dodger) without the required reinforcement of the boom at the attachment point.
My 40 yr-old boat has gone thru many changes including the addition of mid boom sheeting as above. I was changing back to the original end boom for my own convenience as a single hander until I read the bold line above. That reason makes even more sense. Thanks.
 
#7 ·
Paulo,

Thanks for the better description if you will. I know it is different, you can order on a lot of the bigger as you say, 34'ish foot European built boats. Frankly it looks interesting, maybe easier to operate than a purchase system.

I am sure, just like mid vs end boom sheeting, the German system has some plus and minus's to it too. With it being the end user needing to decide which +- is for them.

Marty
 
#8 · (Edited)
Marty,

In my opinion in what concerns a end boom sheeting, German sheeting is better on a 40 ft(or bigger) if you have a racing crew. The cockpit is big enough and the control of the boom (on the winches) is not too near the wheel. More space for moving around and more easy control. But if you are a solo sailor you will want the boom control right near the wheel (where you can reach it) and in this case you will not want German sheeting.

I think that they don't use German sheeting on 34ft and smaller cruiser racers because the cockpit space is not big enough to have effective maneuveur space for genoa control and boom control on the side winches (I mean two guys working at the same time on each side away from the wheel).

If you have a mid boom sheeting and if you are a solo sailor you should want German sheeting, especially if you can have 2 winches on each side because you can bring the boom control to a winch nearer you (using the other for the genoa), instead of using the ones on the top of the cabin.

Regards

Paulo
 
#15 · (Edited)
Gentlemen, I am confused. How does the German system move the traveler?

For taking full advantage of the friendliness of use of the German sheeting almost all new cruiser boats come without traveler (only cruiser racers use it). They use instead a system that works has an automatic traveler ajuster.

It has not the versatility of a traveler, but if you are not a racer and are not one of those cruisers that like to take all decimals of a knot from your boat, this system will work just fine. Even the more sportive oriented cruiser boats, like Hanse use it.

Better to see than to describe it. I will post four photos, on the three first you will see the German sheeting rigged to the front lateral winch (genoa on the other one). On the last one you will see it working.






Regards

Paulo
 
#10 · (Edited)
It doesn't.... It's just another way to run the MAINSHEET. With mid boom sheeting's normal shortfalls (low purchase, sheet winch on cabintop) this system, if led to an area close to the helmsman (eg seldom used secondary winches) it deals with those shortcomings. Obviously it can be rigged regardless of whether the sheet attachment point is mid boom or end boom.

The choice (at the design stage) of mid or end boom attachment is usually driven by companionway access, cockpit comfort and obstruction, or dodger accommodation.. and it necessarily dictates traveler location as well (and vice-versa)

If by "move the traveler" you mean adjustment, that is, of course, a whole other set of tackle.

I'd also like to qualify all this by saying that by midboom sheeting I'm mostly referring to cabintop travelers forward of the dodger/companionway.
 
#11 ·
If by "move the traveler" you mean adjustment, that is, of course, a whole other set of tackle.
Faster:
Thanks for taking time to reply of this one and the one before. :)
I meant moving the traveler to port and starboard. The pic I post above does not show the tackle/block, but it is there, right.

OK, I will check it out next week at the Boat Show. :)
 
#12 ·
Faster,

I too am assuming the traveler is ON the cabin top vs in the cockpit somewhere! i can think of at least three places it could go, transome about a thru transome tiller handle or equal up from the floor, in front of a wheel. or like mine, just behind the cabin back wall going across the cockpit. I am sure there is maybe a 4th or 5th place if you will, that will allow endboom from the cockpit, but most would be variations on the just mentioned 3 places IMHO.

Thank you for the better description Paulo. I think in the end, for me, an end boom with a cockpit traveler, so I or whom ever can reach for a steer position, yet just enough away a crew an operate when racing, along with a micro, ie on my boat, main mainsheet is 4-1, with a 4-1 micro for 16-1 when it is howling, or need a better finite adjustment. At times I wish I was was 6-1 with th 4-1 micro for 24-1. 6-1 for better pull in after higher gust let off of the sheets, but the 4-1 does come back in quicker....but harder and more tiring for the main sheet crew.

Again for rockDAWG, not sure there is a true "BEST" setup, all have plus and minus's as noted. You would need to choose which is best for your application and useage.

Marty
 
#13 ·
rock,

yes you are correct, the traveler in I believe any of the above systems, needs another set of block and tack. The main sheet is another block and tackle set.

Just as some of us have setup a block and tackle to adjust the jib car's on the side decks vs going forward and unpinning the car moving for or aft......

Marty
 
#16 ·
Interesting. I have a similar rig on my boat, with the whole thing mounted on a conventional traveler behind the cockpit. On each side of the car there is a line stopper, a turning block and a winch. It works very nicely although offshore I find I have to recenter the main sheet every few days.
 
#18 ·
Paulo,

As I was looking at the pics, I was going, "where is the traveler?" nice to know I am not totally blind yet!

any way, still proves the point of " there is not on perfect way" along with the "variations on the 3 cockpit mounted systems" I mentioned above. One can vary ALL the systems to a degree to make more or less room in the cockpit, then it will depend on if you have a race or 2-3 person cruise crew.......as to how to rig each of the designs, along with ALL do help control the main. So choose "your" system to meet "YOUR" needs, not mine or someone elses.

Marty
 
#27 ·
Thanks Captains for all your input.

Note to self. Take pics at the boat show for all different boom and traveler setup and I post them here. Without proper references and terminology, I am so confuse. Sorry, my neurons are not firing up this morning. Where is my coffee :)
 
#29 ·
I think Joe was a good student in high school geometry. He is exactly right with respect to the angles involved.

In my experience, with an boom-end sheeting arrangement and a traveler that only extends across the cabin top, is that the traveler is plenty long if you have a good vang and a way to get purchase (or a winch) to pull the boom down under load.

Works for me.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I have had both end boom and mid boom and there are benefits to both systems.

I currently have end boom on the CS-36T and would not have it any other way on this boat. End boom sheeting puts main and genny handling within reach of the wheel. My traveler is directly in front of the pedestal. I also tail my vang back too and that gives me most of the control I need unless I am in a "tweaking" mood.

The only draw back is that with a 3 1/2 year old we rarely sail with the main up as a family. By next summer it won't be an issue but from 1 - 3 1/2 we have just sailed under the 150 genny, which luckily our boat does very, very well and balances nicely.

Considering I sail solo A LOT, the end boom sheeting is a VERY nice feature to have as a single hander. Mid boom travelers can also obstruct vision especially on boats with dodgers, which most boats in the NE have. Obstructed vision and lobster pots don't mix well....;)

I love the visibility we have without a traveler in front of the dodger...
 
#32 · (Edited)
Base on the sail shape and sail efficiency, Which one is better? ,,,
the above posts provide thoughtful insights into the pros and cons of various sheeting arrangements, and there are plenty of considerations, but to the OP's specific subject of shape and sail efficiency, there is no difference for sail shape or efficiency. Nada,
 
#33 ·
I changed a Hunter 27 over from end of boom to mid boom sheeting for a very different reason. On an accidental jibe the mainsheet dropped into the cockpit as the boom flew across the boat. It pulled up tight under my armpit and tossed me over the lifelines! I was saved from going overboard by one foot catching in the lower lifeline while I dangled by my knees over the upper. I was about 25 years old and in excellent shape at the time, now I'd probably just disappear from sailnet suddenly!

Harken used to offer another style of mainsheet. It had two tails going into two cam cleats side by side. The sheet was endless, passing around a single block where the two came together. If you grabbed both lines in your hand and pulled you got a fast 3 to 1 purchase. If you pulled on either one alone you got 6 to 1. I thought that was pretty slick.

Gary H. Lucas
 
#34 ·
Gary,

That system is still listed, or it was about a year ago in the Harken catalog. Like ANY sheeting system. I am sure that one has plus's and minus's too.

Mainsail,
How big is the traveler in your 36T? the one in Dodenja's new 36M is about 2' long, BUT it was initially just behind the cabin and would be 5 or so feet wide if it was still there. But it does not work their due to the dodger.

Marty
 
#37 ·
Mainsail,
How big is the traveler in your 36T? the one in Dodenja's new 36M is about 2' long, BUT it was initially just behind the cabin and would be 5 or so feet wide if it was still there. But it does not work their due to the dodger.

Marty
About 4.5 feet. I have been trimming main sails as my racing duties for years and do not find the length of this traveler limiting in any regard.

When racing though I do prefer a mid boom arrangement as it allows me to trim from the companionway and stay out of the way of the head sail trimmers, tactician and helm.. I still ultimately prefer end boom when single handing or sailing with a group because I can do it all myself and not have to crawl over non-sailors just to trim the main..
 
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