Sinking of Rule 62 - Page 63 - SailNet Community

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  #621  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

I've been through north bar in abaco.

Nobody that's been though there would try it at night in a rage.

Cap't didn't know what to expect, trying to improve the conditions of the sick crew, made a bad decision.

if he was prepared, he would have gone back north to N MOW channel. that is pretty much and all weather cut.

so sad...
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  #622  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
For the Bounty too right?
IT is not an easy decision. I think Bounty situation is quiet different from Rule 62. Bounty LLC is an organization and Rule 62 is a privately Mom and pap operating pleasure boat.

If I perished in the sea, I don't want my wife to sue my sailor buddy who was kind enough to give me a ride regardless what happened. **** happens, we must bear all the risk on our own shoulder. However My legal council Schumberg and Goldstein would think differently.

Likewise, if have need a crew and **** happens, he died. I don't want his family go after my nest egg. A few weeks ago, I indeed post a thread regarding how to protect ourselves from frivolous lawsuit. Even if you win, you will lose big time.

If Laura's family wins the case, no owner will want to take on any crews and no captain can afford to hire crew or vise verse.
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  #623  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Negligence is negligence. When you take the responsibility of being the Captain you must do it seriously. You are stating you are the most experienced on board and ultimately make the final decisions. In life you get held accountable. Whether you think that's fair or not. Waldbridge should be one of the ones held accountable for his actions as his decisions ultimately caused Christians death. Captain of the Rule...same. His choice ultimately may have led to her death. Let 12 average citizens decide whether he should be responsible. He lucky he hasn't been charged with involuntary manslaughter. A corollary is the driver of a car and their responsibility. If they crash it and make an error and kill someone what happens?

As far as delivery captains, the ones I have gone with do accept they are ultimately responsible for their crews. That's why they are crazy IMHO if they don't carry insurance. If they screw up they should expect to be sued just like everyone else in society. You kill my daughter through irresponsible actions, yes I am coming after you. No it wont bring her back, yes it will prevent you from doing it again.

Maybe this issue is one which separates the wannabe delivery captains from the true professionals who are willing to take this responsibility seriously. I would hope they have some kind of professional insurance. Of course to get that I am sure they would need to be credentialed.

If I hurt a guest on my boat through irresponsible actions...they can sue me. Its why I also have insurance.
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  #624  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

+1

In life you have to be willing to accept responsibility for your actions

Its a big problem here with fatal car accidents when very high speed driving is involved because from a criminal standpoint its difficult to file charges

As the dad of a successful prosecutor every trial is all about people unwilling to be responsible for there actions no matter how many they killed
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Last edited by tommays; 04-05-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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  #625  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Negligence is negligence. When you take the responsibility of being the Captain you must do it seriously. You are stating you are the most experienced on board and ultimately make the final decisions. In life you get held accountable. Whether you think that's fair or not. Waldbridge should be one of the ones held accountable for his actions as his decisions ultimately caused Christians death. Captain of the Rule...same. His choice ultimately may have led to her death. Let 12 average citizens decide whether he should be responsible. He lucky he hasn't been charged with involuntary manslaughter. A corollary is the driver of a car and their responsibility. If they crash it and make an error and kill someone what happens?

As far as delivery captains, the ones I have gone with do accept they are ultimately responsible for their crews. That's why they are crazy IMHO if they don't carry insurance. If they screw up they should expect to be sued just like everyone else in society. You kill my daughter through irresponsible actions, yes I am coming after you. No it wont bring her back, yes it will prevent you from doing it again.

Maybe this issue is one which separates the wannabe delivery captains from the true professionals who are willing to take this responsibility seriously. I would hope they have some kind of professional insurance. Of course to get that I am sure they would need to be credentialed.

If I hurt a guest on my boat through irresponsible actions...they can sue me. Its why I also have insurance.
I posted a question not long ago, asking if any professional delivery captains carry professional liability insurance just like doctors, surgeons, nurses, and etc. I got no response. It appears that most are defer to the boat insurance of the owner. To me either they are very poor and just so uninformed.

No one (including you) knows the details of Rule 62, if the fault is from the Captain.

We become the nation of blame. So you go out to kill yourself and you can sue the NWS and CG not saving you fast enough. Where the Hell it will end?
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  #626  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

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Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
I posted a question not long ago, asking if any professional delivery captains carry professional liability insurance just like doctors, surgeons, nurses, and etc. I got no response. It appears that most are defer to the boat insurance of the owner. To me either they are very poor and just so uninformed.

No one (including you) knows the details of Rule 62, if the fault is from the Captain.

We become the nation of blame. So you go out to kill yourself and you can sue the NWS and CG not saving you fast enough. Where the Hell it will end?
You are right...I don't know what happened. That's why there are courts to decide. Someone evidently thinks that the Captain is liable. I don't know if he is. Time will tell.

If it was my daughter killed and I couldn't get information or thought it was the Captains fault I probably would sue also.

Not sure about the delivery captains insurance question. I recall the one gent with the C&C 40 from NE doesn't believe in it.

Many of us carry insurance. Not just doctors, lawyers etc. In my business owners as well as some managers carry insurance in case you get a whole bunch of people sick through mishandling of food.

I say let the courts decide the liability in Rule 62 and hope it doesn't get thrown out on some non-related technicality.

Dave
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  #627  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You are right...I don't know what happened. That's why there are courts to decide. Someone evidently thinks that the Captain is liable. I don't know if he is. Time will tell.

If it was my daughter killed and I couldn't get information or thought it was the Captains fault I probably would sue also.

Not sure about the delivery captains insurance question. I recall the one gent with the C&C 40 from NE doesn't believe in it.

Many of us carry insurance. Not just doctors, lawyers etc. In my business owners as well as some managers carry insurance in case you get a whole bunch of people sick through mishandling of food.

I say let the courts decide the liability in Rule 62 and hope it doesn't get thrown out on some non-related technicality.

Dave
I would do the same thing if the owner and other survivor refused to answer or give details of the account. But I assume that the owner must have details to the Laura's family. The situation for Rule 62 is that the owner was inexperienced and suffered prolong fatigued. It is impossible to make the right decision.

Everyone (boater) carries general liability insurance. When sh*t hits the fan, this is not enough, he or she can default to their umbrella insurance. But those general liability insurance does not cover the boat owner for his negligence. If you are rich, they will go after your nest egg.

I am so surprised that most if not all professional delivery captains do not have professional liability insurance to cover their asses. Even the plumbers and carpenters carry professional liability.
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  #628  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...I say let the courts decide the liability in Rule 62 and hope it doesn't get thrown out on some non-related technicality.
I think that it's very interesting that this has made its way to the courts, and not just settled outside court by the insurance company, as are the vast majority of liability cases. My speculation is that this means the plaintiff and his attorney are demanding much more $$$ than the insurance is willing to pay and/or the insurance company believes the Jones Act does not apply.
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  #629  
Old 04-05-2013
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
I posted a question not long ago, asking if any professional delivery captains carry professional liability insurance just like doctors, surgeons, nurses, and etc. I got no response. It appears that most are defer to the boat insurance of the owner. To me either they are very poor and just so uninformed.
I doubt it. I suspect they do not wish to reveal the existence of insurance on a public forum because it would invite lawsuits. I would also guess many of them operate their business through an LLC or other entity to reduce their personal liability and may have employed other asset protection strategies so their personal assets are not at risk.

As a lawyer, I carry professional E&O insurance, although I am not required to. You can check whether an attorney in Virginia has E&O by going to the Virginia State Bar website and look up the attorney's name. (You can also find out whether a lawyer has been disciplined or is in good standing.) We are required to reveal whether we have insurance and the public has a right to know, according to our regulations.

It seems the professional delivery captain business has little, if any, similar regulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
We become the nation of blame. So you go out to kill yourself and you can sue the NWS and CG not saving you fast enough. Where the Hell it will end?
I agree. Personal responsibility is eroding in the U.S. More people do see themselves as helpless victims. I blame the outrageous verdicts on the jurors, not the lawyers. Many people seem to have no idea of proportionality in awarding damages, particularly against corporate entities.

However, many on this listserv seem content to avoid or dismiss their potential liabilities as captain of a vessel. They also seem to minimize the fault of the captains when we critique these mishaps, as if the mere fact of going to sea in a vessel absolves one of all responsibility for any mishap.
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  #630  
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Re: Sinking of Rule 62

I've had a few people tell me that insurance is a waste of money and I should just tell the marina I have it, without actually acquiring it. I'm blown away at how many people consider that acceptable practice.

There's no way I'd operate any type of vehicle or piece of equipment without some kind of liability insurance. It's far too risky, even if something isn't your fault at all, you can be held liable. In cases like this, a lapse in judgement could cost you significantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockDAWG View Post
We become the nation of blame. So you go out to kill yourself and you can sue the NWS and CG not saving you fast enough. Where the Hell it will end?
I remember a case a few years ago where a guy flew his airplane into a thunderstorm and died in the inevitable crash. The NTSB concluded he was at fault for the accident entirely. The widow sued the aircraft manufacturer, the FAA, the FBO the airplane was based at, and any mechanic that touched the airplane in the last 2 years. I don't know if she was successful, but I do know that no one in her crosshairs came out unscathed. I've seen similar happen several times.

I am actually surprised that similar hasn't happened to boat manufacturers over the years, not that I've seen anyway. Usually in aviation you see the aircraft manufacturer listed in lawsuits for just about every accident.
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