3rd Reef in Main? - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 01-17-2011
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 35
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
mainemandean is on a distinguished road
3rd Reef in Main?

It seems to me that there is some disagreement out there regarding third reefs in the main. (I am on the verge of adding one to our main.)

Many offshore cruising boats have a third reef. I was reading a book by Hal Roth last night, and he believes in three reefs. As does Larry Pardey, Bill Seifert, and others. John Vigor mentions having two "deep reefs," so I am thinking that might be equivalent to three typical reefs.



Here is a photo of our boat. You can see both existing reefs. (The second one is just above the lowest batten.) I believe that the first reef takes away 15% of the sail, then the second takes another 20% of the total, so two reefs means a 35% reduction. Hal Roth talks of getting down to a 60% reduction through three reefs in the main, and my aim is get to a 50%-60% (reduction) range.

My sailmaker does not agree with the premise that at the point you would be using this, the sail would not be up to the task. But he does think that one would want to TIE in that reef directly to the boom through the new clew. He points out that running a reefing line down through a cheek block on the boom creates a weak point: the block. He thinks that that would be the first part to fail: the block would rip off of the boom. If, like my other cheek blocks (for the 1st and 2nd reefs), that block were screwed on, I think he is right. I am curious if anyone has cheek blocks on the boom which are thru-bolted. On the forward end, the third reef would be held by the reefing hook. (Actually a line running down TO the reefing hook, I never use the reefing hooks directly on the sail, and one would likely be unable to get that third tack down to there.)

I woud be interested in getting feedback on this, both pro and con. If you have three reefs, what is your experience regarding plusses and minuses?

At this point I think that I would just have a line secured to the boom, ready to tie down the third-reef clew. And forget the cheek block. I know that putting that tie in would be an adventure, but I still think that having the reef in the sail would be good insurance.

I think that if you want to have a storm trysail, that is great IF you have a separate track for it, and it's ready to go. I think that trying to remove all of the main's slugs, then hoist a trysail in the main's track is just too much work do do in lousy conditions. And I think that taking the main completely off would be virtually impossible, particularly if the main has full battens like mine.

I do not see this as a hurricane rig. I have been in 30-35 knots of wind with just the staysail up. I remember thinking that the boat would probably be happier with a deeply reefed main, and a reef in the staysail. More balance, no lee helm, lower center of effort.

I am looking to have something to go to in 30-40 knots. There is very little chance I would find myself in higher winds than that, with the type of sailing we do. We mostly sail the coast of Maine, but I am planning to sail to Nova Scotia in July. Directly, it is a 200 mile trip. I see my plan as just a (relatively) inexpensive insurance policy, something to have in my pocket.

Comments?

Dean
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 01-17-2011
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,450
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 8
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Talk with your sailmaker more. I believe that the 2 reefs you have aren't really that deep. A third wouldn't be a bad idea except I don't know what weight cloth your current main is. It might not be up to snuff, as your sailmaker claims.

That being said, I think you'll do just fine in 30-35 with what you have, or a #4/blade/ staysail. Yes, a deep reef main and a storm jib would be better, and I agree, I don't like screws holding in hardware on a boom. But how oftern are you forced to sail in 40+ knots? Do you currently plan to do a lot of offshore work? If so, I'd opt for storm sails, and keep what you have.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 01-17-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Well, it depends... I have a third reef in my mainsail. To give you an idea of the depth of the third reef, it basically leaves the sail numbers at the boom. Please note, this is not a photo of my boat and this boat does not have a third reef...



This is a pretty deep third reef, but the sail loft that did the work put in very large reinforcing patches for the third reef.

However, I think the main sail would be fine for even storm conditions with this third reef. One thing to realize is that the reduced sail area from a reefed sail will often have far lower forces on it than the unreefed sail does at lower wind speeds.

As for the reefing setup on my boat, I use a two-line reefing system for all three reefs. The tack reefing points are equipped with blocks that are shackled to a ring on the other side of the sail. This allows the line to pull the tack reefing point down without much friction. The first reef uses the same setup for the clew reefing point. For the second and third reefs, I added a Goiot-made reefing block to the cringle to simplify matters.



The reason I chose to use the Goiot Reefing Blocks for the second and third reefs is to prevent the reefing lines from hanging up on the backstay. When I originally setup the reefing blocks, using the conventional setup I am using for the tack and first reef clew reefing cringles, I found the blocks for the second and third reefing clew cringles would hang on the backstay due to the extended roach of the mainsail. Another advantage of the Goiot blocks is less weight aloft, and the reefing lines for the second and third reefing clews now goes around the sail and helps secure the bunt of the reefed sail to the boom. All six reefing lines are all lead back to a third cabintop winch and are secured using line clutches.

One major reason I opted for the deep third reef instead of a dedicated storm sail is the issue of having to change out the storm sail. Setting a third reef made more sense and can be done very quickly without the need to leave the cockpit in the heavier seas and winds that would necessitate the use of a storm trysail or third reef. The mainsail on a trimaran is generally heavier cloth than that of a similarly sized monohull sail, since a trimaran can't bleed off the excess wind forces by heeling the way a monohull does, and was another consideration for going with a deep third reef instead of a storm trysail.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 01-17-2011 at 12:09 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 01-17-2011
Temporarily on the Hard
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 33
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Nitro is on a distinguished road
+1 on three reefs. Sailmakers shy away from them but I know plenty of people in the Storm Trysail club that have never flown a trysail. Three reefs is inherently easier.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 01-17-2011
tommays's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,278
Thanks: 1
Thanked 29 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 7
tommays will become famous soon enough
IMHP about the time you need a third reef a strorm trisail may be a better path as that kind of wind realy puts a beating on the sail
__________________
1970 Cal 29 Sea Fever

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1981 J24 Tangent 2930
Tommays
Northport NY


If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 01-17-2011
SVAuspicious's Avatar
Mermaid Hunter
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: on the boat - Chesapeake
Posts: 3,552
Thanks: 0
Thanked 124 Times in 109 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SVAuspicious will become famous soon enough
I have three reefs in my main and have been glad to have them all offshore.

No cheek blocks anywhere. I have rings and hooks at the luff and reefing lines at the leech. Careful rigging at the leech means the reefing lines pull the bunt down AND acts as an outhaul.
__________________
sail fast and eat well, dave
S/V Auspicious
AuspiciousWorks.com
beware "cut and paste" sailors.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 01-17-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I have three reefs in my main and have been glad to have them all offshore.

No cheek blocks anywhere. I have rings and hooks at the luff and reefing lines at the leech. Careful rigging at the leech means the reefing lines pull the bunt down AND acts as an outhaul.
Do the reefing lines go to a block in the end of the boom instead of a cheek block?
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 01-17-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
...
...
.. For the second and third reefs, I added a Goiot-made reefing block to the cringle to simplify matters.


....
One major reason I opted for the deep third reef instead of a dedicated storm sail is the issue of having to change out the storm sail. Setting a third reef made more sense and can be done very quickly without the need to leave the cockpit in the heavier seas and winds that would necessitate the use of a storm trysail or third reef. ....
That makes sense In my previous boat I used also the Goiot reefing blocks. With one of those that problem mentioned by the sailmaiker regarding the possibility of a failing block is not an issue because the Goiot block is inside the clew "ring".

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 01-17-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
That's another reason I used the Goiot blocks for the SECOND and THIRD reefs... The loads are probably low enough on the first reef that it isn't an issue, but on the second and third reefs, that may not be the case. However, the blocks I am using for the other reefing cringles have an SWL of 1760 lbs., so I feel fairly confident they'll manage anything I put them through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That makes sense In my previous boat I used also the Goiot reefing blocks. With one of those that problem mentioned by the sailmaiker regarding the possibility of a failing block is not an issue because the Goiot block is inside the clew "ring".

Regards

Paulo
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 01-17-2011
HDChopper's Avatar
Needing Apehanger Helm
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: AZ
Posts: 495
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
HDChopper is on a distinguished road
LOL Dog ...60% of the time I go to look something up there you are , You my friend are on the ball !

Goiot Reefing Blocks
__________________
There is no right way to do the wrong thing
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Main Sail question, No reef points? DulceSuerna General Discussion (sailing related) 8 11-30-2010 02:20 PM
How loose is your main sheet while raising the main? legarots General Discussion (sailing related) 33 06-24-2009 05:26 AM
To reef or not to reef, that is the question blackpearlsailing General Discussion (sailing related) 12 05-28-2008 08:46 PM
My first Reef... Stevyboy General Discussion (sailing related) 11 04-08-2008 01:45 PM
best way to reef a main doubleplay Seamanship & Navigation 10 03-27-2004 03:55 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.