Polars, PHRF, boat speed, boat shopping - Page 3 - SailNet Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 55 Old 02-14-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Daveinet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 6
 
Quote:
What do you define as a "good" SA/D ratio?
My boat is like 25, which is suppose to be in the "race" category, which I find hard to believe by its lack of speed. Even running a 30% larger full batton main, to me it seems slow, but in light wind, I ran down a Cat 22, which I was a bit surprised at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
...You still haven't given an explanation on what you define as "fast". Are we talking Colgate 26 'fast' at 156 PHRF, or are we talking TP52 fast at -87? Or are you talking as fast as you can get for 10k? Define your limiting factors better and we can help you more.
Sorry, its hard to define, as speed and excitement tend to go hand in hand. The goal is excitement, not necessarily a specific speed, although I would expect to sail 5 - 6 knots any time I take the boat out. Most of the time winds around here are 5 to 10. Sailing style will be to go out and come back, not necessarily to make it to a destination, so if the boat is a little slower on some points of sail, that would not be all bad. Most of the time I would be sailing on a small lake, less than 1000 acres, although sometimes would be out on the Great Lakes.

As fast as I can afford? Kind of, but if the boat is too slow, what would be the point in upgrading from what I have now? That is the real crux of where I'm at. Its really a matter of how patiently do I wait for the right deal and how do I know its the right deal if I stumble on it. That is where the PHRF comes in, but it can be difficult to find ratings on some boats. Should I really just be waiting for a multi-hull and then it has to be the right multi-hull, to have some interior space. If Farrier had been making the F22 for the last 20 years, I could have some luck stumbling on one. The privately built ones are soo expensive. All I can do is drool.

Dave
RL 24 NEW to me April 25th 2014
AFC 17' 2+2 (sold in 2012)
Hobie 14'
Sunfish project boat

Sailing a large boat on a small lake is very tacky.
Daveinet is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
I don't discuss my member
 
zz4gta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,529
Thanks: 0
Thanked 31 Times in 31 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
So you want a boat that can sail at 0.8 to 1.0 times the speed of the true wind, that has a retractable keel, is under 24', has sitting head room, and under 10k ready to sail.

Do you realize that in 10 kts of breaze that means you're traveling at 8 kts of boat speed? You're not going to get that kind of performance out of 10k bucks.

What do you sail now? There are 3 boats in your sig. What other boats have you sailed that you appreciate their performance? Sounds like you want a boat that can plane, and most planers aren't going to have much room below.

Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
zz4gta is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #23 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Telstar 28
 
sailingdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 14
         
A friend of mine used to say about buying boats, you have SPEED, COMFORT and PRICE... pick the two that are most important to you and the last will drop or rise accordingly.

If you want FAST and COMFORTABLE....it's gonna cost you.

If you want FAST and INEXPENSIVE, you're not going to be too comfortable...

And, if you want COMFORTABLE and INEXPENSIVE, you're not going to go very fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
So you want a boat that can sail at 0.8 to 1.0 times the speed of the true wind, that has a retractable keel, is under 24', has sitting head room, and under 10k ready to sail.

Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
sailingdog is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #24 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Senior Member
 
catamount's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gulf of Maine
Posts: 599
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 13
 
Why do you need an interior on a 1000 acre lake?

Doesn't your Hobie Cat give you excitement?

Maybe you should be looking at foiling moths?

Or DN ice boats...

Peterson 34 GREYHAWK, West Boothbay Harbor, Maine

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, a new voice for ocean conservation
catamount is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #25 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Senior Member
 
Argyle38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 244
Thanks: 13
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
How handy are you? It almost sounds like nothing but a multi is going to fit your needs, but they are more expensive, at least when they are in good condition.

You might be able to find something that needs some work. Have it surveyed to make sure it's not ready to break in half, fix it up yourself and you might be able to get to where you want to be.

Good luck.

S/V Argyle
Downeaster 38 #40

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Argyle38 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #26 of 55 Old 02-15-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Daveinet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
What do you sail now? There are 3 boats in your sig. What other boats have you sailed that you appreciate their performance? Sounds like you want a boat that can plane, and most planers aren't going to have much room below.
That is probably the best way to answer the question. I have sailed a Tartan 10, which for a big boat, I remember sailing very well speed wise. Truthfully, the only thing preventing me from looking seriously at one is the 9+ foot width and the permanent keel. Its bigger than I need, but could really be OK if it was trailerable. I also sailed in a Mac, I think it was ~25 footer. I remember it being kind of slow.

I guess, my descriptions are coming in halfway through the story. The absolute needs are:
Trailerable
Cabin with head - I have digestive issues that can require an immediate solution, no time to sail back to a shore.
Looking for:
Speed
Family friendly
The speed and family friendly go somewhat hand in hand. The rest of the family is not as patient is I. The desire for a cabin is more height than over all space, as one does need to live down there, but you need to be able to nearly stand up to get your clothes/suit back on after using the head. I get into a delicate balance of desires here, as the DW has perceptions about what she would be willing to spend money on - spend a bunch of money and can't even sit up in the cabin? - that may not go over very well.

I would view the Beneteua 210 or 235 look almost - maybe - kind of marginally OK. They are rated to do 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze. The problem is then comparing to other boats. The PHRF is between 190 and 210. So how much slower is a boat that is rated between 240 and 250? Will I notice that much difference?

The Hobie was great speed wise, but was a little small for 4 people, and not porta-potty ready. I don't sail it any more, one of the pontoons was damaged and repaired by someone else and it no longer sails right. The repair added a bunch of weight. So it is just a yard ornament. The phantom is a project boat, with hopes to be used for a 100 acre lake and to tow behind my motorcycle.

There have been some suggestions here, but it is difficult to compare, as I could not find any ratings for most of the boats given.

Dave
RL 24 NEW to me April 25th 2014
AFC 17' 2+2 (sold in 2012)
Hobie 14'
Sunfish project boat

Sailing a large boat on a small lake is very tacky.
Daveinet is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #27 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Telstar 28
 
sailingdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 14
         
Dave—

Get a copy of Steve Henkel's book, The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats, which discusses about 300 boats under 28' LOA. He's got a few lists in the back of the book about what boats would be best suited to certain purposes. While I don't agree 100% with his conclusions, it'd at least give you an overview of what choices of boats you might have.

Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
sailingdog is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #28 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Senior Member
 
tommays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,296
Thanks: 1
Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee

My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory

1970 Cal 29 Sea Fever

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1981 J24 Tangent 2930
Tommays
Northport NY


If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
tommays is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #29 of 55 Old 02-15-2011
Old as Dirt!
 
svHyLyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 2,935
Thanks: 15
Thanked 129 Times in 122 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee

My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory
The Bene 235 has a LWL of 20.25' and a theoretical hull speed of 6.03 Knt per Beneteau. One might be able to get the boat to do 6.5 knots or more but that would be surfing down a wave front, off the wind, with an apparent wind of 10 knots. Frankly, in the size range you're looking at, you aren't going to be roaring around in anything that will also have the accomodations you desire.

FWIW...

"It is not so much for its beauty that the sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
svHyLyte is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #30 of 55 Old 02-15-2011 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Daveinet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 6
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle38 View Post
How handy are you? It almost sounds like nothing but a multi is going to fit your needs, but they are more expensive, at least when they are in good condition.

You might be able to find something that needs some work. Have it surveyed to make sure it's not ready to break in half, fix it up yourself and you might be able to get to where you want to be.

Good luck.
Certainly part of the equation, although I don't want to much of a project, I'd rather be sailing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Dave—Get a copy of Steve Henkel's book, The Sailor's Book of Small Cruising Sailboats, which discusses about 300 boats under 28' LOA...
Thanks Google has it online, so I can start reading it tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
I think your going to be disappointed as the Beneteua 210 or 235 doing 6.5 knots in a 10 knot breeze is a NOT gonna happen as we have some in the race fleet here and while there competitive with other boats at that rating they have to sail in the last start and go 1/2 the distance to not hold up the race committee

My J24 at 174 is hard pressed to make than kind of speed and a 35' i sail on with a 117 will make that just happen with a LOT of work and a big sail inventory
Good info. From what I have heard/read, they take a lot of tweaking to get any serious performance out of. That's why that has been a marginal consideration. I've read a lot of complaints regarding the PHRF for that boat. Thanks.

Dave
RL 24 NEW to me April 25th 2014
AFC 17' 2+2 (sold in 2012)
Hobie 14'
Sunfish project boat

Sailing a large boat on a small lake is very tacky.
Daveinet is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boat speed vs Boat length in light winds Daveinet General Discussion (sailing related) 5 08-22-2010 08:47 PM
New Boat Shopping 2ndstar Boat Review and Purchase Forum 3 05-02-2009 07:34 PM
Wisdom for Boat Shopping Jon Shattuck Buying a Boat Articles 0 08-22-2001 08:00 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome