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  #11  
Old 02-24-2011
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I doubt that any modification is to the cabin is going to make a significant difference in how she'll go the weather. That's simply not an efficient go-to-weather hull form, and if she's not pristinely clean below any issues will be worse still.

I suspect the major issue for you right now is making the transition from a responsive dinghy world to not just keel boats, but the lo-perf end of the spectrum. Go to Granville Island and rent/charter a Martin 242 or 244 for an afternoon to see something closer to the other end of the keelboat range.

Still, you can enjoy some good coastal cruising if you're not in a hurry!
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2011
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How does it sail when reefed?

The high cabin will result in a center of effort that is higher that originally intended. That will cause the boat to heel sooner.
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  #13  
Old 02-24-2011
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You can make ANY cutter 'point' as well as if she were 'sloop rigged'.

There are two common problems that prevent a cutter rig from pointing as efficiently as a sloop rig:
1. Headstay tension
2. The aerodynamic ineffectiveness of of a staysail 'under' a topsail when beating .... mostly due to the SHAPE of the staysail.

Headstay tension -
a. ANY headsail/jib/genoa is designed to be flown from a stay THAT HAS A SPECIFIC TENSION. Here a direct link: to an article I wrote concering matching stay tension to any headsail - topsail, staysail or simple jib/genoa.


you may have to copy and then 'zoom' to properly read it. http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...LuffHollow.gif

b. On a cutter there are TWO stays in front of the mast .... and only ONE backstay .... both the forward stays SHARE the reaction force of the BACKSTAY. Worse, since the topsail/headsail usually has more effective surface area than the staysail .... the headstay will UNLOAD tension into the FORESTAY (the backstay remaining at relatively unchanged tension) and the resultant is that the headstay will then GREATLY sag off to leeward, and the headsail will go draft aft with a closed and 'hooked-up' leech ... which forces the boat into a sideways skid to leeward when beating. ..... all due to the now 'sloppy' headstay. The stronger the wind and windloading on the sails the worse the effect.

Several solutions:
1. Have the headsail 'recut' with a deeper 'luff hoillow' to MATCH the typical headstay sag when pointing (target for 15kts. windstrength) to match the 'automatically loosening headstay' - do tension measurements during trials with a gage.
2. When pointing, loosen the forestay tension to almost 'slack' (5% tension) which will correspondingly increase tension in the headstay OR .....
2a. ... use running backstay tension to get the headstay tension adjusted correctly (but dont 'bust' a cranse collar on the mast head or bowsprit end when doing so).

OTHER.....
Virtually NO LIVING sailmaker understands the shape needed for a staysail flown 'under' a 'topsail' when beating. A staysail used 'under' a topsail when beating needs to have a very 'rounded' luff entry shape. Unfortunately with a sail cut for a 'sloop' (flat luff entry) the only way to get an aggressive 'rounded' luff entry is to put in extreme halyard tension ... and that 'unloads' the headstay tension which causes 'all sorts of aerodynamic problems' with the headsail. The solution (expensive) is to have the staysail recut (re-broadseamed) for a 'rounded entry' & 'draft forward' FLAT leech staysail. An approximation of the this proper cut staysail can be attained IF the sail has a boltrope and cunningham cringle at near the tack --- put in LOTs of cunningham tension (draft goes forward and luff entry becomes 'rounded') but use an almost SLACK forestay tension!!!!!! .... all the 'halyard', etc. load is held solely by the 'boltrope' (totally slacked/loose forestay).

Probably the ONLY correct aerodymanic 'hint' of how to fly a staysail 'under' a topsail ever written: http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/The...e_Head_Rig.pdf

Your rig is a 'true' cutter, with the mast at approx. 50% back from the bow (a sloop will have its mast at 30%) so, being double headed with the mast 'amidships' the combined CE will be IN the headsails not the mainsail and therefore the headsails trim/shape will have to be 'perfect' if you want to 'point' well.

hope this helps .... but if youve only sailed 'sloops' before, your 'learning curve' will now be 'drastic' if you want to make your cutter 'point well' .... but surprisingly once you arrive at the proper sail shape and right tensions youll be able to 'roll over' many 'sloops' when pointing.

Once properly set up (and corrections made to 'sail SHAPING') and rig tensions .... Magazine Articles ----> (a 'sequence of 4 articles) .... Checking Trim on the Wind, ---> Achieving Proper Balance ----> Sailing to Windward, ----> Are You at Optimum Trim?

OR the other choice: ... when pointing, drop the staysail, disconnect the forestay, put up a BIG deck sweeping genoa on the headstay and 'sail it like a sloop'.

More 'other' ..... Once you get the right tensions and sail shapes, sail the boat with nearly a 'dead fish' helm (nearly zero weather helm) ... hints for 'shaping' the main to get a neutral helm: How to properly RAISE a woven dacron mainsail - SailboatOwners.com and this should help the boat become a 'pocket rocket'.

hope this helps.

Last edited by RichH; 02-24-2011 at 02:17 PM.
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2011
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Well
How very informative
I'm going to research all that info you've sent me and I appreciate the time put into imparting it
One thing about sailing and wooden boats is there's never an end to the things you can learn!
Here's a quick question regarding stay tension
The builder of the boat originally found as you are mentioning that when one stay tightened the other slackened
So he had the headstays running down to blocks and joined by a tackle so that when one was tightened (by sail pressure) the other didn't slacken
You can kind of see this on the grid picture posted earlier if you look closely
what do you think of that idea?
It's set up conventionally right now (each stay goes to it's separate turnbuckle) and I haven't converted it back to that system
but was considering it
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Old 02-24-2011
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Oh and I don't have a permanent backstay, just running backstays
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Old 02-24-2011
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I'd think falling off a bit would be a good start. Allow speed to increase, enabling keel to exert more directional control. You will wind up higher than the beat and slide method.
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Old 02-24-2011
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You are correct in saying "all of the factors." I sail a full Keel boat w/ shortened forefoot.. Cape Dory 22. Although it will not point as high as a more modern design, It gives up VERY little in leeway, surprisingly little.
It seems to me that your new boat is very beamy for a full keel.
Beam to LOA is high...
it has been my experience that a full keel with narrow beam [Alberg design]
performs better when pointing.
She must be wonderful off the wind with the Gaff Rig, though.
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2011
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For discussion of 'bootstrapping' or 'velocity dumping' via the sail interation between jib/main go to:http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/Mor...lot_Effect.pdf and youll realize that the jib is very important to the mainsail and vice versa as you really a situation, via correct slot open distance, that unless closelly and precisely set up can cause great 'anomalies' in airstream flow - ie. 'backwinding' - as a 'symptom' if its not correct. But before you get into 'bootstrapping' I would suggest you go the ArvelGentry.com website and carefully read "how a sail really works" before you 'get into' the above listed.

Controllable stay tension via blocks, etc. Many cutter rigs of the 70s and early 80s had such tensioning systems. However they used 'wire' and that soon failed when turned through the blocks and the whole method quickly fell out of favor. With the use of modern super ultra-hi tech lines this is a very good way to precisely control those variable tensions - I do. All you really need is a means to control the forestay tension, just leave the headstay alone and 'balance' the tension based on what the luff curve (hollow) should look like when flown with PROPR stay tension.
Once you can control the inbuilt cutter 'problem' (double forward stays and their 'interplay of tensions'), you'll have NO problem with pointing .... and with that gaff rig (very slightly hooked up to weather - power pinching) should possibly 'trounce' many similar sized sloops when beating.
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  #19  
Old 02-25-2011
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Hmmm
I'll have a closer look at my stays'l and see if it has as luff holow, it'll beinteresting
I believe the builder had the "forestay tensioner" rigged up with rope and not wire with a camcleat block to tighten/loosen
I believe this was also to loosen the tension when the boat wasn't being sailed to keep the mast from warping, it's a stout solid mast made from a tree
with just running backstays
I think to look at the mast now the switch back to standard stays (seperate turnbuckles) has induced a forward curvature in the mast
you're saying I should have the jib stay at proper tension and just fiddle with the actual forestay to get it right compared to the cut of the stay
I'll try those suggestions out as soon as this cold front goes away
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