Heeling to windward - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 02-24-2011
Windkiller's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 176
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Windkiller is on a distinguished road
Heeling to windward

I hope I'm not flogging a dead horse here
I just aquired (dec 2001) a 24' (28 with sprit) wooden gaff cutter based on an expanded picaroon design(SamRabl)
a sweet and very traditional boat, no winches, belaying pins on pin rails
two head sails and a gaff main
I know cutters generally can't point as high as a marconi rigged sloop and also this is a 24' (on deck) boat with a 9.5 ' beam with a tallish cabin.
I am however new to keelboats, but not sailing so much having sailed dingies avidly and often for the past few years.
i was wondering if I want to try to keep this boat as close to upright(like a dinghy) as possible when beating to windward
I was finding it hard to make progress (it took much longer)
As I seemed to drift to leeward a lot
Is this a result of excessive heel or the windage of the boat
Or it's stout dimensions
Or perhaps all the factors above
Any helpfull suggestions and or ideas?

Last edited by Windkiller; 02-24-2011 at 01:07 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 02-24-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 825
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 9
chris_gee is on a distinguished road
Um don't know the boat. On general principles excessive heeling is due to excessive sail for the wind. To some extent this might be overcome to a much lesser proportion by keel weight, hull buoyancy due to beam (absent). How much heel was there? 20 deg is normal with a narrow boat heeling mor e then hardening up if it has a decent keel but can seem a lot. Leeway suggests a relatively small keel area and can be increased by excess heeling. In summary my guess is you have to know the boat and maybe the sail area was a bit high.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 02-24-2011
Windkiller's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 176
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Windkiller is on a distinguished road
here's a couple of photos
An old one prior to my owning it on the grid
and a lousy one I took that's a little dark but you can see the profile and sail area
She's round bilged with a 9.5 ft beam and 24' on deck
I believe there's about 900 lbs of ballast in the keel with a a little more in the bow plus all the anchors out board etc (no inboard currently)
Attached Thumbnails
Heeling to windward-swan-profile.jpg   Heeling to windward-swan-grid.jpg  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 02-24-2011
MARC2012's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 594
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
MARC2012 is on a distinguished road
Pretty boat,keel looks deep enough.marc
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 02-24-2011
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,555
Thanks: 4
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Your boat is not a dinghy. The rig, cabin(!) and hull are creating a LOT of windage, and the whole thing is really pretty heavy for the size of the boat. Beating with some heel may increase your lateral resistance and help reduce leeway. It is not likely that your long keel is serving much as a foil to lift you to windward. Heeling is not going to increase your waterline length (i.e. hull speed) much because of your relatively short counter and bow overhangs, but it may feel like it's faster to have the water going by closer to the cockpit. Increasing sail area might help, but then you strain everything else. You're not beating a dead horse here, just a slow one. It's really a one of a kind boat - being an adaptation of Sam Rabl's design. Try different things and see what works for you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 02-24-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 174
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
HPLou is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to HPLou
Congratulations on a nice looking boat. Aside from sails set and wind, current speed and direction may be another factor in falling to leeward.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 02-24-2011
BubbleheadMd's Avatar
Chastened
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edgewater/Annapolis
Posts: 3,039
Thanks: 1
Thanked 60 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 6
BubbleheadMd will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Yahoo to BubbleheadMd
Man, that's a sweet ride.

I think the primary cause of your leeway or low pointing ability are the high cabin, the lack of winches which may prevent you from trimming tightly enough, and the fact that you can't trim too tightly anyway because you have outboard chainplates. The keel looks adequate to me, but I'm not a naval architect.

She's a sweet vessel, but going from dinghies to this boat is like going from a Porsche to a dumptruck. She'll go to windward like a haystack and that's just a characteristic of how it's built.

You know who could really answer this question? Bob Perry over in the Cruising Anarchy section of SailingAnarchy.com or Jeff on this forum.
__________________
S/V Old Shoes
1973 Pearson 30 #255
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 02-24-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
From the photo posted, it looks like the cabintop was an afterthought, rather than part of the original design. It adds a lot of windage on a 24' boat... and is far higher than that of most 24' boats.

Look at the sideview of a CD25D, and you'll see that the cabintop is far lower relative to the size of the boat.

__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 02-24-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 2,128
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
WanderingStar is on a distinguished road
There are other considerations too. I've sailed a gaff yawl of similar size. Gaff rigs take a little study and practice to get good shape. I also notice in the picture that she has ballast bolted onto the sides of the keel. That indicates that a prior owner also found her to be too tender. Don't be afraid to add ballast inside. Also, if the sails are old and stretched, or poorly made, the won't perform well to windward. Don't give up, try little changes and keep working on sail trim.
Where are you located?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 02-24-2011
Windkiller's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 176
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Windkiller is on a distinguished road
I'm in Vancouver BC
I was just trying her out in Burrard inlet here to get a feel for and used to the traditional rigging
She goes pretty good for her size and shape, just not to windward as well
I guess I could take the cabin down, as it is I can stand up inside the companionway, I guess that's the trade off
I wonder if lowering the cabin by, say , half would make a marked difference, worth the labour and decreased interior comfort??
Not eager to take the task on and or change the builder's design(have other's lined up for her) but I'm curious as to opinion on the subject
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Windward performance deseely General Discussion (sailing related) 21 04-01-2012 03:42 PM
Best angle to windward? malyea Racing 9 12-07-2010 03:46 PM
Beating To Windward? casioqv General Discussion (sailing related) 34 07-12-2010 10:48 AM
Do yankees go to windward? MedSailor General Discussion (sailing related) 11 03-02-2010 09:35 AM
Windward Island Routes halcyon13 Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 2 10-23-2003 10:00 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:22 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.