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  #31  
Old 03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cormeum View Post
Wassa matter Cal, haven't you learned to "Love the Bomb"?
Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't shed a tear if the entire Horn of Africa was turned into a giant plate of molten glass by a latter-day Gen. Ripper and Maj. Kong. The problem is we have too many Lt. Mandrakes running the show.

But the constraints of this thread put that line of argument right out. Or so I thought.

I don't, however, think that the concept of "ignore it and it will go away" will work here. Seems like every time a piracy story breaks they're moving farther and farther out. As a practical matter, yachts and small vessels should definitely be avoiding that area, true enough. But they're going to keep going farther and farther out. Before you know it, they'll be into the Red Sea, down south of Madagascar, and over towards India.

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
You Americans can put your guns away as that isn't on your Foreign Policy and won't happen.
Well, since there are US Navy ships in the area, and we are holding pirates on board those ships at this very moment, that's not strictly true, is it?

I'm not advocating that we go pirate hunting, or sending SeALs out of their way to scour every square mile of the Indian Ocean on search parties. But when the US Navy happens to find them and take them alive, there really is no convincing practical argument against summary execution.
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post
Quote:
Mark said: You Americans can put your guns away as that isn't on your Foreign Policy and won't happen.
Well, since there are US Navy ships in the area, and we are holding pirates on board those ships at this very moment, that's not strictly true, is it?
I meant in context of the West invading Somalia and installing a workable Government. The US, UK, NATO, etc won't invade Somalia.

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Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post


there really is no convincing practical argument against summary execution.
Yes there is an extremely strong argument.
Justice

In Wikipaedia its defined as Justice is the concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, fairness, or equity, along with the punishment of the breach of said ethics.
Justice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its basically what seperates you from being a Somali pirate.

You will find that the entity that adjudicates a breach is a very special entity - its not you nor me, its a instrument of Government that is not controlled by Government - the Judiciary. Often it uses normal citizens (a jury) to find on the facts. The princples are so important that in the US Constitution they are virtually the FIRST things mentioned! Read Separation of powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It all boils down to you, the 'reasonable man' if you just go summarily shooting people you are just as bad as what you think those people are.

Even the murderers in Hitlers regime had their day in court. These Somali scum are certainly no worse.


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  #33  
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On perspective or a lacking thereof

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Hitler
Wow, Godwin in 31 posts.

People in this thread are operating on an awful lot of assumptions. The first being that the people committing these crimes want to be doing what they are doing. In situations as desperate as that of Somalia and other 'pirate' nations this is rarely the case. Often they are coerced or forced into service of the crime/war lords who orchestrate these actions. Be it by threats to their family, threats to their person or simple economic slavery.

It's easy to make black and white moral judgements against people in these situations because we simply have a hard time relating to their position. You might be surprised what you would consider 'lowering' yourself to when it comes to providing stability to yourself and those you love.

The second assumption is that Piracy is a problem to be solved, it isn't. It's a symptom of desperate people trying to survive in a society that is falling into chaos.

The simple truth is that there is no easy fix here. 'Liberating' the country is the best way to get a populace to forget their differences and band together to fight the meddling invader.

International aid work is probably the most productive, providing stability and hope is one way to reduce the need for people to turn to crime. Providing long term stability through aid does not yield much immediate effect, however. In previously troubled countries that have enjoyed relatively long periods of peace and growth there exists deep rooted paranoia amongst the populace that drives people to a "get what you can while the getting's good" mentality. Westerners are sometimes surprised when locals they meet and grow to know as 'good' people turn out to be petty thieves; personal effects go missing, a little bit of money here and there, not much but definitely what we would consider theft.

They are good people at heart, but they have lived through strife that you can not possibly imagine and the fear of those dark days weighs heavy on them. It takes generations of stability in a country to eradicate this mentality and convince the populace that, no, the peace really is for real this time and you can get on with living a normal life.

If you want to fight against terrible acts like piracy the best thing you can do is do a little research on the NGOs that are trying to make a difference in that country and offer your time, money or skills to help them. In my experience* you want to avoid the non-secular 'missionary' type outfits** and focus on smaller outfits doing focused, project-based work. The exception to this for me was Medecines Sans Frontiers, whenever we were 'up-country' those guys were never far away, every one of them that I met seemed driven and passionate about just getting the job done, no posturing, no BS.

-Jim

* I worked in East Africa for a de-mining NGO for some time.
** They're good people but promoting religion in most of these countries is like selling snow to the Inuit, you can't eat a bible.

Addendum;
This is my first post on these forums, I only came here to learn about boat buying and maintenance! I'm planning on buying a boat soon, saving up and eventually traveling far and wide, hopefully doing more NGO work.
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeyrock View Post
Wow, Godwin in 31 posts.

People in this thread are operating on an awful lot of assumptions. The first being that the people committing these crimes want to be doing what they are doing. In situations as desperate as that of Somalia and other 'pirate' nations this is rarely the case. Often they are coerced or forced into service of the crime/war lords who orchestrate these actions. Be it by threats to their family, threats to their person or simple economic slavery.

It's easy to make black and white moral judgements against people in these situations because we simply have a hard time relating to their position. You might be surprised what you would consider 'lowering' yourself to when it comes to providing stability to yourself and those you love.

The second assumption is that Piracy is a problem to be solved, it isn't. It's a symptom of desperate people trying to survive in a society that is falling into chaos.

The simple truth is that there is no easy fix here. 'Liberating' the country is the best way to get a populace to forget their differences and band together to fight the meddling invader.

International aid work is probably the most productive, providing stability and hope is one way to reduce the need for people to turn to crime. Providing long term stability through aid does not yield much immediate effect, however. In previously troubled countries that have enjoyed relatively long periods of peace and growth there exists deep rooted paranoia amongst the populace that drives people to a "get what you can while the getting's good" mentality. Westerners are sometimes surprised when locals they meet and grow to know as 'good' people turn out to be petty thieves; personal effects go missing, a little bit of money here and there, not much but definitely what we would consider theft.

They are good people at heart, but they have lived through strife that you can not possibly imagine and the fear of those dark days weighs heavy on them. It takes generations of stability in a country to eradicate this mentality and convince the populace that, no, the peace really is for real this time and you can get on with living a normal life.

If you want to fight against terrible acts like piracy the best thing you can do is do a little research on the NGOs that are trying to make a difference in that country and offer your time, money or skills to help them. In my experience* you want to avoid the non-secular 'missionary' type outfits** and focus on smaller outfits doing focused, project-based work. The exception to this for me was Medecines Sans Frontiers, whenever we were 'up-country' those guys were never far away, every one of them that I met seemed driven and passionate about just getting the job done, no posturing, no BS.

-Jim

* I worked in East Africa for a de-mining NGO for some time.
** They're good people but promoting religion in most of these countries is like selling snow to the Inuit, you can't eat a bible.

Addendum;
This is my first post on these forums, I only came here to learn about boat buying and maintenance! I'm planning on buying a boat soon, saving up and eventually traveling far and wide, hopefully doing more NGO work.
Great post. It's nice to read a reasoned, rational, realistic response to this issue.
Welcome to Sailnet.
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2011
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Couple of points for thought. I've mentioned most in other threads on this topic.

The US vs. Somalia is like the NFL vs. Popwarner. We could invade and stop this in less than 30 days. However, we have to remain there for years until they could govern their own country.

80% of their citizens are illiterate!! That's not exaggeration to make a point, that's the level. It would take more than a generation to fix that.

This isn't a question of how, we have many solutions to.... how. This is a question of priority and whether you are willing to make this one. Many of the nuclear bomb button pushers are the same people that sit in Starbucks after we've invaded and want our troops to come home.

Finally, think about those that settled the wild west in the US. Virtually to a person, they all lived in poverty. Their solution (in total) was not crime. There is more to their motivation in Somalia than poverty. Discuss among yourselves..........
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  #36  
Old 03-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead View Post
Great post. It's nice to read a reasoned, rational, realistic response to this issue.
Welcome to Sailnet.
Honestly, not only is it good to see another Aussie, it is good to see another (rare) rational post on the subject where the general contribution reminds me of an eighties action flic - as much guns & masochismo as fantasy.

The US is not going to invade (or "glass") Somalia. Currently it is a criminal problem (as opposed to a political one) that rarely makes the six o'clock news - it is simply cheaper for them to mostly ignore it. And any country that decides to board and/or confiscate weapons from boats simply because they reason they must be pirates, are themselves engaging in piracy according to international law.

Just as Axel Foley would be brought up on charges of manslaughter (int he very least), so too would boats enacting what people are advocating for here be brought up on charges of piracy.

Damn it, I finally got motivated enough to comment in this thread. I was trying to avoid it
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  #37  
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  #38  
Old 03-12-2011
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Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post
What do you mean, "especially" the US? Or what? We'll be regarded as bullies? We'll be denigrated and berated in front of the UN? People in other, smaller countries will make snide comments about us?
Well basically yeah that is what I mean't. Also I would suggest that there might be a fair amount of domestic backlash as well. I think you have got me wrong....... I personally am not against the use of force at all, Nor was I meaning to sound like I was US bashing.......I was stating a fact, that western countries with democratic governments generally won't go around hanging people without judicial process in 2011.

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Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post
The point was that no, executing them on the spot isn't going to solve it. But we'll do no worse that way than pussyfooting around with them, trying to figure out where to bring them to court.

If I had said "kill them all and let God sort them out," that would be one thing. That would have been absurd (case in point, see the post directly above this one). But the question was what can be done that would make a difference. Take a harder-line against pirates when you find them, that will make a difference. It may not solve the whole issue, but nobody seems to have an answer that does.
Hey I agree with all of the above!

I wasn't disagreeing with your sentiments at all, But I started this thread though because we have gone around and around with talk about using more force, not pussyfooting around blah blah blah and most agree on this, but how in practice can this happen in 2011 in the world we all live in???


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Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post
Incidentally, why is it the default position of the "educated" community that force is never an acceptable solution to any problem? You say "War is not the answer" (I don't know if you've ever said that, but I'm playing the odds here by guessing that it's a thought that has crossed your mind, if not your lips), and I say "that depends on the question."
Dude you read me wrong. I will say it again, I am not against the use of force. In this particular case I think it is the only thing that is going to work. I personally think we need to move beyond 'patrolling the waters'. I believe it will only be by targetting some of the land based chiefs, and land based resources/shelter that any success can be achieved and that this would also have to take place at the same time as some monumental sorting out the of government of Somalia. Hey thanks for compliment though, I have been called a few things on here before but never 'educated'.

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Originally Posted by jcalvinmarks View Post
And by the way, the idea of executing pirates apprehended in the act while in international waters is not so unreasonable. If I'm not mistaken, there was a similar problem with piracy a few hundred years ago. How did they solve that, I wonder? Is it barbaric? Yes, it is. But if playing patty-cakes is so damn effective, why is this problem not already solved?
Dude we did alot of things differently 200 years ago......I agree with your sentiments but again it's just good old Sailnet Chest thumpin' Rambo talk.......I will say it again like it or not no modern government is going to execute people without judicial process.

Besides like we have said killing the boys in the boats is probably not going to do anything to change to situation, as the next day there will be more boys in another boat.... So how do we actually get tough??
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  #39  
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What answer are you looking for???????? Death as a deterrent is the most effective way of stopping PIRATES. What would you have the UN do??? Sit down and educate the pirates. Hmmmmmm.....let me see......."Ok you bad pirates, don't you know killing is berry berry bad. Shame on you, no mo pirating please."
Sigh.

See my above post. I am not actually against force or military action in this situation if it is deemed to be effective. I believe I have said that several times now.

Death is a way of life in Somalia........the death of insignificant kids at sea would be seen as unlucky and no worse than 1000 deaths that would face them if they didn't become pirates.

You really think if we started executing the kids in the boats this will deter the millionaire warlords????

Give me a break.
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WTF ?? Really !!!
The very people that it may effect , the Sailing Community, cannot even come to a concensous. I don't know how many of you have been involved with these type of people, but they would have have no compunctions about slitting your throat and sending you to the " Locker ". The average person cannot fathom just exactly what kind of murderous animals these " pirates " are. Remember, these types of people DO NOT place that same value on human life as you do. I was drafted, sent to Vietnam and became familiar with the " locals " in an intimate way. I quickly came to think of the
M60 & M79 as my close personal friends. I do not condone nor will I suggest that any offensive tatics should be taken by private individuals. That being said, if you cannot or will not embrace the reasons to obtain the hardware and aquire the skills to use that hardware to at least be in a good defensive position ... STAY AWAY FROM THAT AREA. If a coalition was formed to set up a good defensive position and starve the animals that are hunting you, their chances of survival will dwindle to nothing. BTW, isn't Xe still in business?

It is better to have and not need .. than to need and not have.
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