anyone? experience/interest BetaHybrid

[Michael19491949]

I am interested in the Beta Marine hybrid system. Does anyone else have such an interest or experience with their hybrid system.
http://www.betamarinenc.com/images/B...0low%20res.pdf

[tommays]

Haven't seen the hybrid system yet But everybody i know with a BETA product is happy

I can see some fit issues in a lot of boats as on the standard ones i have seen there is not a lot of space for the extra length of the hybrid system ?

[klem]

Why are you interested in this? Is it the appeal of a much larger generator, is it the appeal of silent cruising, is it the desire to burn less fuel or is it something else?

The Beta system is a parallel hybrid where both the engine and motor are directly coupled to the shaft. In my opinion, parallel hybrids do not make a lot of sense for the vast majority of cruising sailboats although there are exceptions. ~95% of the time, we run the engine at a cruising speed where the engine has plenty of power. During this running condition, the generator/motor will be doing nothing unless you have deeply discharged a very large battery bank. A 10KW output is actually greater than most of our battery banks can take for a steady charge rate and even if they can, it will be very inefficient due to heat buildup. During the other times, you will either be idling or running pretty hard. While idling, the hybrid doesn't help you unless it shuts down which I don't believe that this unit does (please correct me if I am wrong). At high power levels, you can actually get some extra power by using both the engine and the motor which can be good but is rarely necessary. Hybrid systems in general are often marketed as fuel saving but they really aren't for the way most people use the drive system in a sailboat (powerboats are a bit different) since the electric drive will be doing nothing most of the time. Unless you use the regen feature an awful lot and then use the electric drive, you won't save any fuel.

There are a few reasons that I can think of which may make this sort of thing make sense, here are the ones that I can think of. Someone looking for a drive system that is relatively small displacement but can briefly have a much higher output. Also, someone who has large electrical loads and wants to be able to charge more quickly. Someone with a large battery bank who wants to be able to take short trips without the engine. Going along with that, someone who has very good reliable wind where they sail may get a lot of benefit out of the regen feature. All of these reasons may cause someone to want to get one of these units but it would be tough to justify for the vast majority of us in my opinion.

In the picture and the CAD model, it looks like the electric motor is a model made by Lynch. If this is correct, they are a poorly designed motor which have trouble hitting their specifications and tend to overheat and have other problems. I would also be interested to see what the charge control on this system is and how efficient/inefficient it is. It is a little troubling to me that they use the same motor/generator for all engine sizes.

In general, I really like Beta marine products and plan on installing one in my current boat if I ever need to repower. However, I will not be putting a parallel hybrid system in because I wouldn't get any extra benefits out of it and would have added cost and complexity. Parallel hybrids in cars and boats are very different beasts.

[Michael19491949]

My feeling was that I would like a larger battery bank using LiFeO4 cells of 48v / 400ah and possibly even two such units. With such a set up electrical power would be freely available and even cruising for several hours would be possible. My thought was to equip the boat with a propeller capable of great efficiency in terms of its ability to recharge the banks while sailing. I will definitely have to look into the motor concerns that you mention. Why they would use such a substandard motor when building a good motor is so straight forward I could not say. Thank you for expressing your concerns as these seem most appropriate and provide me with critical questions to research carefully.

[Michael19491949]

Seagoing Hybrids - Hybrid Electric Marine Propulsion

This page does a bit better at explaining the system. The prop can be free wheeled or used to regen the packs while sailing. On longer passages this would be quite useful i think. The benefits appeal to me. Still very concerned over you motor reliability observations however.

[klem]

Michael,

Am I understanding correctly that your intention would be to use the regen feature on long passages to recharge your batteries for both house loads and some motoring? Is doing this sort of sailing something that you do on a very regular basis? You will most likely get a ratio of something like 5:1 (this is dependent on tons of factors and can change a lot) sailing with regen time to motoring time. If this ratio works out for you and none of the motoring stretches are too long so that your battery banks are adequate, it may make a lot of sense for you. The diesel could provide power in extended motoring or where more power is required. Based on my own unscientific observations, I don't think that this is how most cruisers that I have seen use their boats which is the reason that I said I don't think it makes sense for most people. If your application is right though, you may be one of the exceptions where it makes a lot of sense.

What model boat is this? Knowing the model and the expected power usage, it is easy to determine how much motoring time you will get out of your proposed battery bank.

I don't want to alarm you about Lynch motors but I would look into them. I am not 100% sure that the motors are Lynch units but they certainly look like it in the pictures. In lower output applications, they seem to do alright. However, in higher output applications I have seen failures including a total catastrophic failure of the stator due to overheating, pieces of the stator becoming detached leading to ground fault issues and a catastrophic failure of the stator due to a slight overspeed which suggested a very low factor of safety to me. In addition, I am not a huge fan of how they align the driveshaft and stator in the unit using a double groove ball bearing to support an overhanging shaft. I suspect that all of the failures that I saw had something to do with heat since all were running close to their rated specifications but within all parameters including air temperature. These are air cooled motors which could be interesting in a hot engine room (I believe the spec is a maximum of 40C inlet air temp) that is going to be getting significant extra heat from the motor. Keep in mind that 10kw @ 48V is over 200A. Again, please don't be scared by this, but definitely look into it.

[P35juniper]

My take is that it would be good if you have a short run to sailing go to sail and only use the drive for very short periods of time, where I will be keeping my boat 5-10 of powering would be all I need most of the time, just to get out of the mooring field, and to get back to it, so I have to start the diesel, let it warn up for a bit, lightly load it for 10 minutes, then shut it down before it fully heats up, then repeat, not the best life for the engine but an electric drive would love it.

[Michael19491949]

I do think that my application is probably more right than most and do understand why you believe that it would not work for many. Another thing to factor in that we haven’t mentioned is the ability to recharge via shore power and that would also work out rather well for me. Especially with the larger battery set that I contemplate a bit I’d be pretty much on pure electric for my day tripping and would have plenty of time to recharge when I head out on longer excursions.

I am looking for a real beat up old Fisher 37. The ideal would be one with everything needing attention including a new engine. I’d rather go through one completely fixing it all up myself than be constantly wondering which system would next fail.

I love pilothouses and have always enjoyed my time on these boats coming out of Port Everglades. At the moment I am contemplating Everett, WA and pilothouses are at least three times as beneficial in that environment. In the mornings I find nothing quite so nice as a hot cup of coffee in a warm and dry pilothouse. I’ve also looked at Roggers and Colvics but DO really I like the Fishers best. A very well known commodity.

I looked more closely based on your mentioning of the Lynch motors and I agree that this seems to be what Beta is using. You do seem to know quite a lot about them and I have no experience at all with such motors. 40C just seems to low to me and would require at least a strategy for dissipating the heat from the engine room. It would be much better to have a sturdier / over configured motor that one could rely upon to be under stressed.

Would you be able to mention a 10kw motor you like better or a manufacturer known by you to produce more hardy breed of motor? Would limiting the draw of current artificially or providing a larger capacity motor make any sense to you? Perhaps a 12kw motor?

[Michael19491949]

you pretty much got it... there are days where it is just plain dead calm and I would like to use the electric longer on those days.... my goal when hanging around the home grounds would be to use only the electrics with sail but there are times when I stay out for so long that it is possible the conditions would change or be against me to the point where I would need the diesel... for much of the time I would expect not to use the diesel at all

[klem]

Michael,

There are lots of good motors out there but I can't think of any that would be drop in replacements for a Lynch. A Lynch is a pancake style motor meaning that it has a relatively large diameter but very short length. The reason that they are so desirable is that their rated power output is quite high for their size and weight. Regarding the 40C inlet temp, you can exceed that but you need to back off on the power when you do so. Good controllers will actually interface to a temperature sensor on the motor and shut themselves down if there is an overheat situation. If you were going to be building your own system, I would be happy to suggest a few motor manufacturers to look at but I don't know of any drop in replacements for the Lynch (space being the major constraint based on the pictures). You really just need something that is still DC, has the same voltage and same rated rpm. There are lots of little things to get right as well such as shaft size and connection type, mounting holes, etc.

Personally, if I were looking at a hybrid or all electric system, I would seriously consider an AC system. In my experience, the AC motor controller do a much better job at regen and the torque curve for the motor is much flatter over the rpm band. Additionally, AC motors are often fully sealed with liquid cooling which means they can be run in a much hotter environment (you do need to cool the coolant) and they don't have as many corrosion issues.