SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

So we found a boat we like..... Now what?

9K views 38 replies 16 participants last post by  EJO 
#1 ·
After searching for awhile and deciding on what kind of boat we wanted, we found something near to it, and went and looked. It's a Cape Dory 33 (though we found several 30's we think we would have liked, but they were in distant ports). with some age and things that need to be repaired.
So what is normal protocol?
Make an offer?
Get a survey first?
Offer the list price (which would mean for us "forget about it")?
Try and figure what all needs to be done and how much it will cost then do a general survey of all boats of that vintage and style and what their asking price is then offer that?
Buying a boat sure isn't like buying a car, is it!
Any info on pricing, fair market value, how to proceed would be very welcome.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Is it listing with a broker? If so, you might be better off using the services of a buyer-broker. He/she can walk you through the entire process.

If you are strictly a DIYer, start with SailingDog's boat inspection tips. Then if you still want to buy, make an educated offer contingent on survey and sea trial. Make sure YOU pick the surveyor. If they accept your offer you will be expected to put some good-will money into escrow. After the survey you will have the opportunity to haggle further based on findings of survey/sea trial. Agree on final price and pay the remaining balance.

Either way, make sure you ask the broker(buyer or seller) for comparables from Soldboats.com so you can get an idea what similar models have sold for recently.

This is a good site for researching Cape Dorys: Welcome to the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association's Home Page
 
#3 ·
The normal procedure is to make an offer, negotiate, and then only if a price is agreed upon proceed to survey and seatrial. Surveys come with a price tag, so in most cases you don't want to expend that money if there is never going to be a meeting of the minds on price.

If you've been looking at these CDs for a while, you probably have a fairly good idea what the price range looks like. Remember, though, especially on older boats which can range from sorely neglected to upgraded like new, there can be a pretty good spread. It takes some judgement to evaluate where a boat falls in that spectrum.
 
#11 ·
The normal procedure is to make an offer, negotiate, and then only if a price is agreed upon proceed to survey and seatrial. Surveys come with a price tag, so in most cases you don't want to expend that money if there is never going to be a meeting of the minds on price.
Well, maybe - as long as the seller understands and agrees that the price is based on a clean survey and subject to renegotiation based on what the surveyor finds.

I view it differently. I did the survey first. I knew what the asking price was, becuase it was listed in the seller's ad (of course). So I knew where he was starting. The only question then was how far down from that he would go. I didn't want to start discussing that until I had the surveyor's report in hand. Even if I ended up walking away from the boat, I figured the couple hundred bucks I paid the surveyor would be worth not ending up with a boat that had more problems than I realized (which, come to think of it, I kinda sorta did anyhow, a little but) or ending up paying too much.

Worked out very well - the surveyor came back with a valuation $700 less than what the seller was asking, which made it much easier to make him a lower offer - which he accepted.
 
#4 ·
your offer should be based on what the boat is worth to you...without professional help (a broker) you have little idea what the sold boats actually sold for...the boat is worth exactly what some one is willing to pay for it...you may or may not get a "deal"...if that is your goal, I would be very leery..."deals" often turn out costing way more than a correctly priced, correctly maintained boat in the long run, or even short run. YMMV.

that being said, most buyers will make an offer - subject to:
1. acceptable financing to you
2. Successful Survey
3. Successful sea trial
4. Rigging survey (if desired)
5. Engine survey (if desired)
6. Anything else you may want to add here...is where you do it, not after the offer is presented..

A contract is written and presented, along with your deposit money (again this is where the broker is usually of value, if no broker find a local bank or use BoatUS) and then you proceed to go through the list - at YOUR expense unless agreed to previously.

As you satisfy the contingencies, you move closer to a decision and lose leverage to back out of the deal if you find things are not as they appear.

When the survey has been completed by a competent surveyor YOU have hired (not last years paperwork, or a friend or a surveyor identified by the seller or his agent), you often can re-negotiate your initial offer i.e. - have the seller reduce his price, have the seller "fix" those items, or simply walk away and have your deposit returned. You will be out the haul/survey charges. And the seller may or may not respond as you would like. This is generally "big" things, show stoppers and the like. Not nuisance things.

I would read up here and at other sailing forums for more details. There are volumes written on "value, offers, deals, soldboats.com, fair market value, what it is really worth", etc..

Best of luck
 
#5 ·
It sounds like you've seen the boat and find it acceptable. If you are totally unfamiliar with inspecting a boat, I might consider reading up and taking another look. You want to minimize your chances that you waste money on a survey, which will be entirely at your expense. Overall, I look for the story on how it was care for, more than trying to find specific discrepancies. The professional surveyor can find those better than I. Stored well, cleaned well, broken stuff fixed timely, etc. It doesn't have to be perfect, something will need repair. I try to get a sense of whether the owner was attentive or tried to defer everything.

The reason I find this important is that the survey will only tell you what is wrong in the moment. If she wasn't cared for properly, you can guarantee you will have premature failure of many things that pass the survey test today.

If she passes this test, you have to research a fair price and make a reasonable offer, subject to a survey and anything else you may require (financing, insurance, transport, whatever). The more contingencies, the less attractive your offer. Most expect to negotiate, so offering a bit below what you are willing to pay is customary. Some will say to agree to anything and then try to pound it down after the survey identifies every little scratch. I disagree with that approach. I suggest you agree to a price that you are willing to pay if the survey confirms that she is in the condition you believe. The survey may find things you are unfamiliar with or that cause concern. Your two remedies should be to either walk away or ask the seller to pay to repair them for your agreed price. You may want to control or inspect the repair process.

When it comes to closing, that's another matter. I highly recommend a closing/escrow agent that is contracted to do title searches and file registration or documentation paperwork.
 
#6 ·
Glad to see you found a sailboat you like. All this other stuff must sound confusing. Take a look at this site for tons of Cape Dory research and conversation Cape Dory Boats - Index Your boat info is listed under "About Cape Cory Boats". --Buying Flow chart is kinda like buying a house---. Besides the usual title & registration the boat may be a "Federally Documented" boat with the US Coast Guard. Info at USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page Some people do the transfer themselves and others pay to have it done. All instructions are provided, I did it.
 
#7 ·
You guys are the greatest. Lots of good information, some that I didn't know the proper sequence on, other things I just didn't think about.
It is a "for sale by owner" deal. I wouldn't have had so many questions if there was a broker involved, though I might have still asked as the broker works for the seller, not buyer. :)
I'm not sure why I was confused on the price; obviously I can only offer what I'm willing to pay, and if that isn't satisfactory then there's no deal. I guess I was concerned about offending the seller with a low price, but as long as there can be negotiation afterwards there should be no cause for offense. We're both looking for a good deal, with how badly I want the boat and how badly he wants to sell it as the final determiner of what that price will be.
As for the state of the boat, I see several things with my limited knowledge.
1) the bilge had some water in it. To me that's a risky deal right there. But maybe it shouldn't necessarily be. He told me that he'd just installed a dripless stuffing box so it's either not working or the source is somewhere else. I didn't taste it (if it'd been my boat I wouldn't have hesitated, but since it's someone elses......., I'll bring a refractometer if I go back to the boat to see if its salt or fresh.)
2) crazing of the gel coat ondeck. There's quite a bit of it, not sure how serious or how it can be repaired (DIY or hire) As mentioned earlier, I had a Searunner 31 for 10 yrs., so no stranger to glass work, but never had this to do.
3) While the woodwork on deck will require a lot of work, the woodwork below will too. There is damage severe enough on several ports that a replacement of the panel on the starboard side should be pursued. Not a cheap job, but one I can do myself, I feel. The owner kinda blew it off, saying everything just needed a coat of oil and it'd be fine.
4) The engine is likely original, so will need an overhaul, at least, in the near future. It looks good now, but a bath in degreaser and a paint job could have achieved that.
5) No history on the standing rigging. It looks okay, but if it's 29 years how much longer can it go before needing replacement?
6) The one improvement is a new bottom job. Reviews state that this vintage boat (1982) can be subject to osmotic blistering. No info from seller on this either.
Thanks for the help guys. We're excited about getting on the water again, and would like for this to be the boat, but not so much that we're willing to make a bad investment.
 
#8 ·
1) Could be from the mast if it is keel stepped. Many boats have water in the bilge and should not automatically be a deal breaker.
2) Big job to make it look right again.
3) What you can see inside that is damaged is likely just the tip of the iceberg. I have done this job and it looked minimal until I cut into the plywood and found a large portion rotted while the outer veneer still looked good. Veneers are usually better species than the substrate which tends to hide the real problem underneath.
4) Big $$$
5) If 29 years old then it has lived 3 lifetimes. Replace before you sail. If not then get a qualified rigger to do dye testing on it to ensure it is safe.
6) New bottom job is a plus if done properly. Look for receipts for this.
 
#9 ·
pinayreefer, Sounds like you have a handle on it. Is the boat on the hard if so you could determine if she leaks after your sea-trial her if the water in the bilge is higher.:D
All boats that have been in water or the weather have water in their bilges. Hence most all boats come with bilge pumps.
In older sailboats a lot of the water in the bilge comes from leaking ports (rain water) which you mentioned the boat has/has seen.
If the bilge pump(s) doesn't come on every hour you should be OK. Also depending on the bilge form sometimes you can't pump them dry.
Make sure you stipulate the contingencies with a subject to your acceptance and possible price deduction.
Good luck, hopefully you'll be sailing soon.
 
#10 ·
the Searunner I had was stepped on the cabin with a compression post, I guess that's why it never had a drop of water in the bilge, which is why when I see water in the bilge, even a little, of a boat I get concerned. Thanks for the clarification, as the Dory is keel-stepped.
I called a boatyard, one of only a few in town, and they wanted $350-$425 for a lift and replacement, and stating that the surveyor only kept it out of the water for an hour or so. Ouch! Seems a lot, given that the surveyor cost on top of it will result in close to a K. I guess that would have answered whether you do the survey before you negotiate a price! Sound reasonable to you all?
Thanks again everybody!
Now to search for "gel-coat crazing" fixes!
 
#15 · (Edited)
Oh yeah, and if you reverse it, I'd have paid for a new boat without getting one, and would be too broke to buy another!
I'm going to compose an offer with reasons why I'm not offering his list price and see what happens. If it isn't to my satisfaction, well, continuing to look doesn't cost anything, or not much anyway!

Sounds like this boat has a pretty big 'to do' list right off the bat. While this will result in surveyors' recommendations that can be useful tools to renegotiate a lower (compensatory) price, these same recommendations might complicate any attempt to secure insurance coverage as well. Frequently the carrier will expect all recommendations be dealt with in a timely manner, sometimes as little as 30 days.

I hope you've looked around so that you know for certain there isn't a better example available nearby - as has been pointed out many a time the premium you pay now for a nicer example may well be less than you ultimately spend on the 'fixer upper'....
No doubt about that. I'd not thought of the insurance side of it, and as far as good examples, we're still looking but have not travelled any distance as of yet. There is another one about 5 hours from here, if it's still there next month we'll be going that way on our vacation trip to the Keys and will give it a close look also.
Thanks again guys!
 
#14 ·
Sounds like this boat has a pretty big 'to do' list right off the bat. While this will result in surveyors' recommendations that can be useful tools to renegotiate a lower (compensatory) price, these same recommendations might complicate any attempt to secure insurance coverage as well. Frequently the carrier will expect all recommendations be dealt with in a timely manner, sometimes as little as 30 days.

I hope you've looked around so that you know for certain there isn't a better example available nearby - as has been pointed out many a time the premium you pay now for a nicer example may well be less than you ultimately spend on the 'fixer upper'....
 
#16 ·
Cape Dorys traditionally have thicker than normal gel coat and that over time and strain causes disproportionately more gel coat crazing which is cosmetic only. If however the deck is soft, then walk away.
As a Cape Dory owner I can say:
Look at the backing plates using a mirror through the inspection ports. If it is darker (rust) than adjacent areas, walk!
The engine, and the above to me are critical. Other deficiencies are comparatively minor.

Dick
 
#22 ·
I am overwhelmed at you all's kindness and advice. Thanks again!
I'm relieved that the gel cracks and water in the bilge are minor problems. He did say he'd put a new bearing (dripless) as a result of a run in with a crab trap. Also, thanks for the advice on the chainplates. I didn't notice an inspection port but will look again when I go over the boat. I hope I'm not abusing the owners trust by going to the boat a third time. He lives away and can't show the boat, and has no broker. If he did I'd still want to look at it more than once. At this point I'm actually trying to find fault with the boat, as another has come up, thhough it's a bit farther away. It's brokered and the info on the boat is more thorough. It looks better, from the pics (and boy can they be deceiving; without even being photoshopped!) but it's going to be limited on viewing, being 5 hours away. There will be shipping of the boat to add on too.
On falling in love - I'll save that for when a boat is mine! I can be blinded to the facts with women and boats if I fell in love too soon!
And my dad once told me that "Son, you haven't been ripped off until you pull your wallet out of your pocket" and I've got it glued to my back pocket right now!
Thanks again guys! Great advice. I'll keep this thread going until the deed is done, then tell you all of my love affair!
 
#17 ·
I own a 1967 Tartan 27'.
Older boats (and yours isn't that old) have special needs that newer boats do not. A lot of this is probably covered in SailingDog's boat inspection tips thread.
- chain plates. They may be behind headliners or otherwise hard to see. They can be replaced/repaired but they are critical components of any sailboat as is all the standing rigging - stays and shrouds.
- engine. Original engine? Diesel or gas? Model #? Does it look well cared for or rusty? How well maintained is the engine?
- drive train. Cutlass bearing ok? Stern tube and/or stuffing box need replacing or re-packing? Engine mounts still solid?
- cored decks. I'm not sure about Cape Dorys from 1982 but many boats were made with Balsa cored decks and moisture can/will get in there and cause spongy decks.

Water in the bilge and chalky gel coat are not alarming findings on a boat this old.

An asking price is just that. The owner/seller has built in a ceiling above the price they are willing to sell the boat for (hopefully). A bid offer of 10 - 20 % below the asking price should not be insulting to the seller. They can always say no if they want. What with summer slip/mooring fees coming up they would probably be happy to have an offer in the amount of Asking Price - Summer Fees. I'd go at least another 1K lower to account for survey and initial fixup/start up costs you will have.

As others have said there is no 'book value' for a boat this old. It all amounts to how well the boat and its systems have been cared for over the years and what will need to be fixed/replaced during your ownership.

Best of luck.
 
#21 ·
I'm far from an expert but...
- Expect to see water in a bilge. Rain will go down the mast into the bilge, the shaft packing will provide some as well.
- Crazing of the gel coat on the decks isn't an issue, unless there is water in the deck. Even that can be fine as long as it doesn't affect structural areas.
- Old diesel engines can be just about bullet proof if they have been maintained properly. Consider an oil analysis.
- Ports that need to be rebedded or replaced aren't a huge deal if you have the patience to do it.
- Standing rigging is a HUGE issue. I worry less about what I can see than about what I can't see. Check all the chainplates. The metal should be free of rust and any structural components that they are attached to should be solid. I don't know how that boat is constructed, but that would be my biggest concern.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Well, I still haven't nailed down what boat we want to shoot for. Cape Dory 33's are fairly scarce, and the calculations of which boat is the best deal depending on asking price versus what needs to be done to the boat has resulted in us nearly eliminating everything so far.
So what other boats would work for us: Couple with a dog for coastal crusing in the Gulf of Mexico and with some distance stuff to the Keys with a 5 year run to retirement and heading to the Caribbean for awhile, with the potential for a run across the Pacific. All this for under $40K base, with refitting for the Pacific run. Sound plausible. Mainly I don't want to get but one more boat, and I want it warm and dry below, makes it easier to tolerate cold and wet above!
What do you think of this?
Or this?
 
#25 · (Edited)
I have just completed purchase on my first yacht (a nice little bilge keeler known as a Leisure 29), from the looks of it you're in the same sort of budget range as me (low). We've been looking at similar boats. I would really recommend sailingdogs excellent guide to boat inspection as others have mentioned. I offer the following advice, as someone fresh from the buying process;

I found in my search for the right boat that when you're dealing with a boat of this age, it is most likely fully depreciated in price. The difference between one that needs a bit of work and one in pristine condition wont be that large. Fixing up an old boat is a lovely idea but can easily turn into a project spiralling out of budget and sanity. Get a boat that's in good shape already and spend those same efforts making it even better. Brand is not, in my estimation, worth much at this point either. If an 80s boat is in good shape now and well used then she must have been built well and no doubt sails pleasantly too, else she would be left to collect barnacles or scuppered by now.

Take into account everything you need to buy or replace upon purchase. Does she need new safety gear? ropes? sail work? engine service? Write down everything and price it up, it may surprise you how much it all adds up to. Make a budgeting speadsheet that takes into account all of this, maintenance costs, running costs, insurance and berthing/storage of each boat you've looked at so you can compare them easily. When you add it all up you might find that the 'dream boat' is actually more of an anchor.

A well loved boat that is hard parted from her owners is a very good sign. Find out as much history as you can, avoid any boats that have changed hands too often (mine had three owners of 10 years a piece).

Finally: take your time, sleep on any decisions, don't be pressured into anything that can't wait 24 hours.

Good luck!
 
#27 ·
Thanks Limeyrock, good advice. The last boat, which I thought might be the one, after 5 trips to look at her, I began seeing problems I hadn't seen before that. And the "price" kept going up and up! Very disappointing as now I'll have to range farther to find what I'm looking for.

Minnewaska, definitely cold feet. One thing I've found about forums in general is that there's always someone to tell you that the thing you're considering is BS, and that if you take their advice and get the ugliest boat imaginable you'll be happiest. I think I saw it here that "life's too short to sail on an ugly boat!"
I am a bit overloaded, but also disappointed that I can't seem to find just what we want. I've got my wife convinced that a boat is what we need, but I don't want to ruin it by getting something that isn't a pleasant experience. She's never even been on a sailboat, so first impressions, and later too, must be right. Limeyrock is so right, but the calculation about the final costs of any given boat are so complicated, and some things aren't known until you make the deal and call a surveyor.
I'm not giving up though! I just have to find the right boat!
Thanks again guys!
 
#29 ·
warning, warning. Wife's never been on a sailboat? Literally?

I suggest lessons and soon...... It is very common that one's first experience is not the calm, serene, glide into the sunset that they imagine. Waves, confusion with lines and point of sail, head down in cockpit looking for one of those lines causing motion sickness, etc. Usually goes away quickly as they settle down and get comfortable, but that experience probably shouldn't be on your big new investment. Get past it before you buy, unless you're both good with you sailing alone.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Fortunately, I've been in that kind of scenario before. Wife thinking she knew more about it than I did, though she was from Idaho and had never been on a boat. Well, after that debacle ended I realized that if I wanted to bring dates on romantic sails, I'd better learn to single-hand, and the sweet young things offer "to help" was met with, "Honey, you just sit there and drink that cocktail while I take care of this boat". 5 years of practice, with lots of solo sailing, and I got good enough that there were never any "exciting" moments, with the boat that is. My present wife has now been with me 9 years, actually trusts me to be able to do what needs to be done but is still eager to help if I ask. I'll still take it very slowly and carefully, though the idea of lessons, or at least the renting of a small laser or somesuch, with several spills to get her over the "heeling fear" will go a long way.
I taught her to drive a car with no problems, hopefully teaching her to sail will go as smoothly. Patience, caution, and "NO SHOUTING" are my primary methods of instruction. Any other advice along those lines is appreciated! I've got "Small Boat Sailor's Bible" and "Invitation to Sailing", books I've had for many years, that I show her, read aloud from, and ask questions from and she's been game for. Hey, she already knows what "boom vang". "topping lift", and "lazy jacks" are and what they are for! She's certainly impressed me with her eagerness to learn.
This process of finding a boat has been up and down though. I think she's been amused at the whole thing. One boat I looked at 5 times, once just standing on the dock and staring at the boat, (and finding several things I'd missed on earlier inspections!). I think she wonders about my sanity.
Tomorrow we are going to look at an Allied SeaWind II, next week possibly an S2 11.0A, and in May when we go to the Keys, it'll be a road trip of boat views, with at least 4 to look at. I think she suspects rightly, I am going crazy!
 
#31 ·
Just to keep up with our adventure, we're still boatless, but have taken you all's advice and gotten her on a sailboat for some fun. She coped well and so that hurdle is over.
We've still not gotten the boat, but an Allied Princess may be in our future. Cleaning out all the other possibilities first, to make sure we haven't missed anything worthwhile then we'll go for it.
The advice on getting a spreadsheet and calculating everything that would be needed was good not only to discover what the total cost would be, but also as a reality check on what it's all going to cost.
Funny though, some calculations end up favoring a boat that does have some stuff that's worn out. We found one boat with some older but still working electronics that the owners overvalued (in my opinion) so that another boat with the electronics which didn't work (and so weren't added to the owner perceived value) seemed better when you knew you were going to end up with new electronics. It's all very complicated though, and no way is it an investment, any more than a car is.
I'm visiting local boatyards and talking to surveyors now, only a matter of time.
Thanks for everyone's help.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Hmm, interesting question.
I think so far, we fall "in lust" with a boat, liking her lines and how she sits in the water, then as we inspect and look at the boat, reality sets in and the burden of what would need to be done to make her "lovable" turns us away!
As we looked at more and more boats, it seemed that the Allied's lines more often turned us on than not, though we really disliked the Mistress, and after trying to make a Seawind II "work" finally got over her too, just too small for us, so it's come down to a Princess or the 42 XL(which is just too much for our budget)

fallard, thanks for the outline of the buying process. We've learned as we've searched and talked to you all and others. The CD's ended up getting scratched because of how proud many CD owners are of abused and neglected boats. Good ones are few and far between. We finally gave up in frustration, plus the wood interiors that we so admire in photos usually end up being dark inside and tons of work to make look decent again, work that doesn't make the boat more seaworthy. The later model Allieds have a nice mixture of wood trim and white laminate, easier to clean and makes for a brighter interior. Plus they remind me of the commercial fishing boats I worked on while growing up!
 
#33 ·
The NADA Blue Book values a 1982 CD 33 at about $30K on average and about $26K at the lower end.

In that vintage, you'd want the surveyor to check for osmotic blistering and make sure the hull repair was properly done. The haulout is absolutely necessary. Your sale should always be contingent on a satisfactory survey to cover those things that you are not aware of going into the deal. The minor stuff is not the proper basis for haggling, but non-functioning equipment, blown-out sails, and structural issues are fair game for your either negotiating repairs/reduced price or walking away with your deposit.

In the end, the boat is only worth what you are willing to pay for it: anything else, like an average sale price, doesn't matter.

The customary procedure is to negotiate a written sales agreement with the price contingent on a satisfactory survey. You would provide a deposit up front that the sales agreement would indicate is refundable if the survey uncovers material defects. Then you do the survey.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top