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post #1 of 17 Old 06-15-2011 Thread Starter
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1977 morgan heritage/westindies 36

anyone know how heavy the glass was laid up in these hulls? im looking for a tank!!
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-16-2011
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These are not a tank. They were moderately heavily built charter boats. The glass was pretty thick, but crudely laid up. They were built to be cheap to buy, docile to sail, and hold up while in livery and that not all that much more. Their Aechille's heel is that there was a fair amount of steel used for structure in these boats and have seen discussions of disecting these boats to get the rusting pile of 'formerly steel' out.

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post #3 of 17 Old 06-16-2011
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Is it possible he was looking for a tank to install?
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-16-2011 Thread Starter
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thanks jeff i will look at that when i go to see one. iwas getting a 36 creekmore 1960 that was laid up to almost 5in thick below the water line, but sold before i could sell my house.
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post #5 of 17 Old 06-16-2011
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If it is any consolation I assure you that the Creekmore 36 was not really laid up 5 inches thick below the waterline. I know the Creekmore 36's pretty well and they were closer to .5 inches below the waterline which is actually pretty thick for a 36 footer.

But there is a lot more to strength than thickness. In most cases when you see a boat that has a thick lay-up, that thickness was achieved by using a lot of non-directional material (mat or chopped glass) and resin rich lay-up, the combination of which results in a fatigue prone laminate with minimal puncture resistance.

Cheers,
Jeff


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post #6 of 17 Old 07-03-2011
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Jeff, I thought that mat could be laid in alternating orientation such that the grain, if you will, alternates direction, thus providing strength. Am I misinformed?
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Re: 1977 morgan heritage/westindies 36

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
These are not a tank. They were moderately heavily built charter boats. The glass was pretty thick, but crudely laid up. They were built to be cheap to buy, docile to sail, and hold up while in livery and that not all that much more. Their Aechille's heel is that there was a fair amount of steel used for structure in these boats and have seen discussions of disecting these boats to get the rusting pile of 'formerly steel' out.

Jeff
I know this is an old post....But having just bought one, hull #3... 7/2015...I'll have to disagree with the majority of the quote above...having worked at both Irwin, and CSY factories in the '70's and commissioned Endeavor's..to set the record straight:...This West Indies 36 is not only a TANK, at 17000 lbs.!!!.... But sails fast!!! at 700 sq. ft SA.....docile is NOT a word to be describing this true classic thoroughbred...
everything FRP is thick, stout and strong...an incredible boat... what is true.....the mild steel used for the mast step, and below sole stringers...needs to be refit....mine is refit with Stainless Steel......awesome!!....this design is My dream boat!!!!!!!... my boat, with its total SS refit is unsurpassed... a true classic,... built like a battle tank...and will easily sail head to head with a Tartan 37...good luck finding one...only 40 were made....

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post #8 of 17 Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: 1977 morgan heritage/westindies 36

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I know this is an old post....But having just bought one, hull #3... 7/2015...I'll have to disagree with the majority of the quote above...having worked at both Irwin, and CSY factories in the '70's and commissioned Endeavor's..to set the record straight:...This West Indies 36 is not only a TANK, at 17000 lbs.!!!.... But sails fast!!! at 700 sq. ft SA.....docile is NOT a word to be describing this true classic thoroughbred...
everything FRP is thick, stout and strong...an incredible boat... what is true.....the mild steel used for the mast step, and below sole stringers...needs to be refit....mine is refit with Stainless Steel......awesome!!....this design is My dream boat!!!!!!!... my boat, with its total SS refit is unsurpassed... a true classic,... built like a battle tank...and will easily sail head to head with a Tartan 37...good luck finding one...only 40 were made....
I am glad to hear that you are pleased with your boat because in the end, what counts to any boat owner is how well their boat suits their needs. It sounds like your particular boat has had owners who made diligent efforts to upgrade and improve your particular West Indies 36. But I also think that some of your perceptions are not all that accurate when comparing a normal West Indies 36 to the full range of boats that are out there, and that some of your perceptions may change once you have more experience with your boat.

Take for example your comments that the you believe that your boat is a tank and you believe that it has thick fiberglass, which you seem to believe in part because it weighs 17,000 lbs. The reality is that 17,000 lbs was not all that heavy for that period, at least when compared to the other value oriented builders of that era such as the Hunter 36, which weighs 17,800 lbs, and the Hunter had a more sophisticated system of internal framing than the stock West Indies 36 (your boat's stainless steel modification not withstanding). Would you also refer to the Hunter 36 as "a tank"?

With your experience in the boat building industry did you ever watch a West Indies 36 or 38 being built to see how the fabrics and resins where handled, or evaluate the laminate schedule for percentage of non-directional fabric? It might help support your point if you provide some insights into why you believe that these boats were constructed differently then the 38 (I too was in and out of the Endeavor and WI factories during this period. Endeavor did a little better job of things), which I know very well and did see being constructed, and which were constructed as I describe. I won't comment on the W.I. 36 specifically, since the 36 that I knew may not be representative since it was the last hull built, and it was custom finished by a sailmaker quite a few years later with a taller rig, and beefed up structural system.

Similarly, I understand that perceptions of speed are all relative, and that the West Indies 36 offers decent performance as compared to many cruising boats of that era. But in a broader relative sense, I stand by my comments. While it can be argued that the centerboard option on some if not most of the West Indies 36 is a great feature, helping with pointing ability while maintaining a shoal draft, at least as far as PHRF is concerned the Tartan 37 is 12 to 21 seconds a mile faster when compared from region to the same regional rating. The Hunter 37 mentioned above is also rated 15 to 21 seconds a mile faster when compared from region to the same regional rating. And if we talk about where the West Indies 36 falls on a broader spectrum of boat performance, it is owed by a Beneteau 35 (shoal draft) 21-24 seconds a mile, a cruising series- shoal draft J-34 24 to 27 seconds a mile, and something like a Beneteau 36.7 over a minute a mile. Those are pretty big speed differences.

And while almost any boat can become hard to handle if purposefully over-canvassed, as they were typically delivered with a 138% genoas, these were comparatively docile boats. (For what its worth an SA/D of 17 is pretty good for a cruising boat of that era but is tiny compared to a boat that would be considered a good performing boat which would have an SA/D somewhere in the 20's and the stability stand up to that much sail area.) The centerboard allowed these boats to be balanced nicely in a breeze, and even with the custom taller rig, they seem to be well mannered. If you don't find your boat to be relatively manageable to handle, I would suggest that look at your rig tuning and sail inventory.

In the end, your perceptions are certainly meaningful to you as someone who chose to buy one of these boats, and should be relevant at least to someone who views boats as you do. I tend to base my comments on individual designs relative to a broad spectrum of boats and perhaps our differing views result from the boats we chose to compare to the West Indies 36.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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Last edited by Jeff_H; 3 Weeks Ago at 02:39 PM.
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Re: 1977 morgan heritage/westindies 36

Jeff, I've looked at the hulls of a lot of Morgans, as you well know. I've never seen any evidence of a chopper gun layup in any of them. There are loads of powerboats, Ranger, Bayliner, etc..., that used chopper gun layups to beef up their hull weights, but it is quite evident when you look in the bilge. The only thing I've seen in Morgans, both the Out Islands and standard sloops I looked at was matting and roving.

Not sure about the bottom thickness, but it's fairly substantial on every boat I looked at. Charlie Morgan designed a tank of a boat for the rental/cruising industry, a boat that would hold up to the abuse of being rented by novice boaters. As for those metal supports, they can easily and inexpensively be replaced with stainless, so that's really not a big problem.

You and I have always disagreed about the Morgan's sailing ability - but that's probably a non-issue for the OP as well. Hell, if we wanted to go fast, none of us would have purchased a sailboat. Fast, as you stated, is a relative term when it comes to sailing. A couple extra miles a day really doesn't mean anything to any cruiser I've met over the past decade.

All the best,

Gary
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post #10 of 17 Old 3 Weeks Ago
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Re: 1977 morgan heritage/westindies 36

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Originally Posted by travlineasy View Post
Jeff, I've looked at the hulls of a lot of Morgans, as you well know. I've never seen any evidence of a chopper gun layup in any of them. The only thing I've seen in Morgans, both the Out Islands and standard sloops I looked at was matting and roving.

All the best,

Gary
Gary,

I did not say that these boats were laminated using a chopper gun. What I said was generically discussing the use a lot of non-directional material (mat or chopped glass) and a resin rich lay-up.

In the case of the Morgan Out Island hull that I helped repair, or in the West Indies in this discussion, the non-direction material was in the form of mat.

In a proper hull layup mat is kept to the minimum needed to bridge between layers of roving since mat is fatigue prone and brittle and so provides the failure mode for impact or horizontal sheer failures.

On boats like the Morgan OI's and the West Indies, a larger than ideal proportion of mat was often used as a inexpensive bulking material to increase the hull thickness with fewer layups. While this does add some initial strength, over time that strength is greatly reduced due to fatigue, loss of ductility, and more initial brittle nature of mat.

Jeff


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