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  #1001  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
Not to nit-pick your otherwise prime quality commentary, but I believe the word you wanted in this sentence is "pettiness" coming from:

pet·ty
1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial.
5. Law Variant of petit.

Meaning 3 would seem to so perfectly complete your thought. Amen.
You are correct of course. A failure to adequately re-read before posting. I shall make the correction.
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  #1002  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
You are correct of course. A failure to adequately re-read before posting. I shall make the correction.
Unless you meant to describe Doug as small and delicate, in which case it's okay to leave as is
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  #1003  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h20man View Post
The youtube video that I saw had no comments...

I had understood that the owners had not been notified... If you have contact info please let them know..
Looks like someone let them know on the Youtube page:

Celebrity Century Rescue 2011 - YouTube
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  #1004  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Having endured being knocked off the foredeck of a yacht in the middle of the night some 50 miles off of Oceanside and then floating around for 2+ hours before I was near miraculously picked up by another boat in the same race, I know exactly how it feels to be slowly freezing to death in the water at sea. I also know that one's reasoning in such circumstances is completely irrational as one thinks only about one's own survival.

Having served 14 months in Viet Nam in the mid 1960's I also know exactly what is feels like to have men suffering and dying and yet also knowing that sending others out to try and "save" them would certainly have cost many and quite likely more lives. Fortunately, I was not the commander that had to make that decision tho' my CO did and tho' I despaired the decision as did he even more so, it was the right one to make.

You are alive and pursuing your particular dream. I suggest you should be grateful and leave it at that. The pettiness revealed by your continued nattering ill serves you.
Very good observations.

It is, indeed, sad to see a clearly intelligent person like Doug revert to the kind of behavior he is exposing here, accusing his rescuers of not being 'human' even though they saved him from certain death after he made (by his own account) questionable decisions. And even after one of them (no less than the Captain of the Kim Jacobs himself) went into the water himself to rescue him. I can see absolutely no fault in the actions of the captain of the Kim Jacobs, if anything, he took too much risk for himself.

I know Doug will strenuously deny it but there is a pretty simple psychological reason for his behavior. Doug is clearly a man with cojones, as evidenced by, among other indications, the very fact that he published a very self-critical and honest account of his actions here. This is certainly a Good Thing, in particularly for endeavors like blue-water sailing. However, the downside is that when he found himself in a situation where he had to rely on others to save not only his life but also that of his wife (who, as he stated, was dependent on him, at least as far as sailing abilities are concerned), it created a deep psychological scar in him. He is now compensating by putting down those that he had to rely on for his survival. Confronted with the undeniable fact that he was helpless and that others had the power to rescue him, his mind constructs that here must be something very wrong with them. Thus the obviously (to others) wrong conclusion that they must be somehow 'inhuman.'

At this stage, he will, no doubt, deny all this and most likely accuse me of 'talking psychobabble,' telling me to 'FO,' or even threaten violence, as he has done in response to many other rational arguments before. We should understand that this is all part of his current mental structure and an (unconscious) attempt to demonstrate that he has not lost his virility despite this traumatic experience in which he found himself helpless and entirely dependent on others. Likely for the first time in his life, as he has overcome great difficulties earlier by his own means.

The process of transcending this state can take months or years. At this point, we should not judge Doug too harshly, he just will have to go through this traumatic process. I hope that Doug will eventually make it.
  #1005  
Old 10-31-2011
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Doug, the Carver's galley is looking NICE! I see you chose granite again!

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  #1006  
Old 10-31-2011
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Despite all the bickering and insinuation going on, this thread still raises some interesting and important points to ponder. Forgive me if I’m going too far back in time but I’d like to make a couple of observations.

A couple of weeks ago, when we were putting away our dinghy for the season, MrsB and myself took a dinghy ride to the surrounding marinas to burn off some excess gasoline. We came across a couple of cruising ketches (including a sister of “Skoll”) with stern port lights. Got a good look up close. The frames are a heavy bronze construction and the ports themselves were a heavy Lexan. From what I could see, there was an equally massive bronze frame in the interior. I couldn’t see evidence of a hinge so I surmise that they are fixed. These port lights were very. Very heavy duty and much stronger looking than the aluminum framed hatch covers found on most forepeaks.

In one of the previous postings, there was a link to some document that described the tanker’s systems and hardware. The tanker had a steel towing cable on the stern – 3 inch diameter and 250 feet (70 meters) long. Not sure how practical it would be in towing other ships, let alone a sailboat or lifeboat. My dad’s destroyer once had the opportunity to tow a disabled sailboat to Gitmo. Granted, they were in a high state of readiness (final preparation to deploy to the Korean war) and their small ship was only 2,200 tons with a transom less than twenty feet above the waterline. My suspicion is a Liberian flagged vessel manned by hodgepodge of nationalities isn’t going to be very competent in rescues at sea despite their good intentions.

If I ever have my druthers in who would rescue my sorry a** at sea it would be a fellow yachtsman, preferably a racer. Bar none, the best small boat handlers are those who do it all the time. After that, it would be the USCG, USN, any cruise liner (how frequently do you think they rescue passengers who have fallen off?). Followed by any US flagged vessel (Jones act – competent U.S. trained officers and manned by union crews!). Last of all, any foreign-flagged ship. I’ll let you guys know how this works out for me.

Doug, I have a question for you regarding computers. I’m having a heck of a time finding one that runs on 12V. The ones I’ve seen all run on 18V, and I would like not to have to resort to a transformer or “converter”. Do you have any suggestions?
  #1007  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
Very good observations.

It is, indeed, sad to see a clearly intelligent person like Doug revert to the kind of behavior he is exposing here, accusing his rescuers of not being 'human' even though they saved him from certain death after he made (by his own account) questionable decisions. And even after one of them (no less than the Captain of the Kim Jacobs himself) went into the water himself to rescue him. I can see absolutely no fault in the actions of the captain of the Kim Jacobs, if anything, he took too much risk for himself.

I know Doug will strenuously deny it but there is a pretty simple psychological reason for his behavior. Doug is clearly a man with cojones, as evidenced by, among other indications, the very fact that he published a very self-critical and honest account of his actions here. This is certainly a Good Thing, in particularly for endeavors like blue-water sailing. However, the downside is that when he found himself in a situation where he had to rely on others to save not only his life but also that of his wife (who, as he stated, was dependent on him, at least as far as sailing abilities are concerned), it created a deep psychological scar in him. He is now compensating by putting down those that he had to rely on for his survival. Confronted with the undeniable fact that he was helpless and that others had the power to rescue him, his mind constructs that here must be something very wrong with them. Thus the obviously (to others) wrong conclusion that they must be somehow 'inhuman.'

At this stage, he will, no doubt, deny all this and most likely accuse me of 'talking psychobabble,' telling me to 'FO,' or even threaten violence, as he has done in response to many other rational arguments before. We should understand that this is all part of his current mental structure and an (unconscious) attempt to demonstrate that he has not lost his virility despite this traumatic experience in which he found himself helpless and entirely dependent on others. Likely for the first time in his life, as he has overcome great difficulties earlier by his own means.

The process of transcending this state can take months or years. At this point, we should not judge Doug too harshly, he just will have to go through this traumatic process. I hope that Doug will eventually make it.
Interesting.

I guess the way I look at it is the manner in which a "Type A" person really behaves in such a situation. For example, if the victim turns down the outstretched hand because the rescuer was "doing it all wrong" up to that point, then tells the rescuer how to "do it right" and waits for his next go-round - you have a true-to-the-bone Type A. No doubt. However, I think we can all agree that that's very rare. In most cases the victim gratefully grabs that hand when it gets within reach, regardless of how it got there. There's really nothing left to control at that point.

But then we come to the discussion of those events...a different world altogether.

In the case of the victim that grabs the hand when offered, outsiders typically want that victim to only be grateful in discussing the events - not critical...as the latter implies ungraciousness. Yet those outsiders rarely apply that same rule to themselves. Their critique is "constructive" - where the victim's is "ungracious". Such is that nature of discussion...the exercise of proving oneself "right". It's really more about the environment than the actions.

Therefore, I think you really have to weigh Doug's critique of the rescue within the context of this thread - which has, as these threads always do, turned into a pretty detailed critique of Doug's actions/inactions by those that don't/can't have all the facts. He's simply doing what we're all doing - critiquing. He just has WAY more invested in his viewpoint than any of us possibly can have in ours.

So, it's really kind of a no-win if you think about it...except for those of us who get to learn from the various comments and viewpoints. There are just too many variables for a simple "right" to be proven.

And all of the above is precisely why you're right that Doug has a serious set of stones to be willing to enter such an environment with such candor.

Personally, I've got no problem cutting the guy some slack. And I think it's a testament both to him and to SN that he's still around fielding comments. All in all, the critiques, from all sides, have been pretty reasonable.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 10-31-2011 at 03:06 PM.
  #1008  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandLocked66c View Post
Doug, the Carver's galley is looking NICE! I see you chose granite again!

No way you would get a galley like this in the 28 footer, this picture must be the galley from a Carver 32. Your bad. Probably close though.
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  #1009  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
Jon,

As I keep bringing up, how would YOU feel if you were floating around / nearly drowning, for over THREE HOURS while people were on their deck standing next to TWO RESCUE LIFEBOATS?

Stop telling me how wonderful these people are, and tell us how YOU WOULD FEEL as you sunk, and only regained the surface after you vomited and expelled the water from your body; only to do that again, and again, and again, for over 3 hours?

How would you feel after that experience about using or not using any rescue life boats for MOB cases if you were drowning?

Simple question Jon.
You know what I would be feeling? How stupid I was to have left a perfectly good boat and jumped into the middle of the freakin Atlantic Ocean- that's what!
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  #1010  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h20man View Post
Amazingly... even with the opened hatches etc, the boat managed to sail itself to Mauii....

from the story:
Maui firefighters responded to a sailboat that run aground on the reef off "Baby Beach" in Spreckelsville.

Officials say around 9:30 Thursday night, a fisherman reported a large sailboat coming in out of the dark right in front of his lines.

Firefighters made their way to the boat, investigated and found no one on board.

The 48ft. "Quantum Leap" got disabled earlier in October 600 miles northwest of Hilo on its way from the west coast.

The three men on board were rescued by a passing cruise ship.








Does this boat have a keel? Looks like none- did it get ripped off? Going to be hard to get the boat off the shore. That is a lee shore with typical 25-30 knot winds and large ground sweel running this time of year. Along with a shallow corral reef running 1 mile off shore.
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