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  #981  
Old 10-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag;

Please stop defending an act, or the lack of an act, when a life hangs in the balance. Because life is worthy of extraordinary acts to save, as opposed to allowing a loss to occur to follow rules.
Fair enough, you were there, and I wasn't ... The master of the KJ is not here to defend himself, and I'm not able to read his mind from afar... But I will stand by my statement that to describe the actions of the crew that actually DID save you, when all is said and done, as "inhumane", or akin to the neighbors who shut their windows to silence the screams of Kitty Genovese, is absurd...

Can't help but wonder what any Master or ship owner, faced with a decision whether or not to participate in the AMVER program, would make of this thread? I certainly couldn't blame them, if their reaction went something like this:

"Damn, talk about 'no good deed going unpunished', eh?

To hell with this AMVER crap, and all these yachties calling for Mommy on their Sat phones when their engines quit, and the legions of American ambulance chasers eager to sue for damages to a boat that had already been consigned to abandonment...

Who needs that sh_t?"


Anyway, looks like we'll be seeing another YouTube rescue posted soon - a Beneteau 391 is floating around out there somewhere N of Bermuda:

Cruise Diva: Norwegian Gem Rescues Storm Tossed North Atlantic Sailors



Last edited by JonEisberg; 10-30-2011 at 08:45 PM.
  #982  
Old 10-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Fair enough, you were there, and I wasn't ... The master of the KJ is not here to defend himself, and I'm not able to read his mind from afar... But I will stand by my statement that to describe the actions of the crew that actually DID save you, when all is said and done, as "inhumane", or akin to the neighbors who shut their windows to silence the screams of Kitty Genovese, is absurd...

Can't help but wonder what any Master or ship owner, faced with a decision whether or not to participate in the AMVER program, would make of this thread? I certainly couldn't blame them, if their reaction went something like this:

"Damn, talk about 'no good deed going unpunished', eh?

To hell with this AMVER crap, and all these yachties calling for Mommy on their Sat phones when their engines quit, and the legions of American ambulance chasers eager to sue for damages to a boat that had already been consigned to abandonment...

Who needs that sh_t?"

Jon,

As I keep bringing up, how would YOU feel if you were floating around / nearly drowning, for over THREE HOURS while people were on their deck standing next to TWO RESCUE LIFEBOATS?

Stop telling me how wonderful these people are, and tell us how YOU WOULD FEEL as you sunk, and only regained the surface after you vomited and expelled the water from your body; only to do that again, and again, and again, for over 3 hours?

How would you feel after that experience about using or not using any rescue life boats for MOB cases if you were drowning?

Simple question Jon.
  #983  
Old 10-30-2011
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And Jon, as I have also stated before, anyone who wants to participate in the AMVER program, as far as I am concerned, really should do whatever training they can before accepting that rescue role.
As the KJ "untrained" actions show, sometimes, doing the wrong things can easily be worse than doing nothing at all. No matter how honerable their intentions.
  #984  
Old 10-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visitor1111 View Post
Must be that Master of the tanker is stupid and not aware to weight if his life is worth than one of the lifeboats on his ship before he enter into the water. Than also can be that the Company who is trusting him as Master of 900 feet tanker full of oil with over 20 crew members is not good in judgment or so....

Costs for rescue?!!!!! In such situations I think that time and money are not issue at all simply due to fact that if that is case than no one will deviate to render asisstance at sea as those costs are not small at all.......but saving life at sea.......

So who can tell what is the price of one human life???????????? One Triumph, one lifeboat, hours of delay of tanker.....????

Stupid things to discuss about isn't it?
I agree completely! It is ludicrous to try to use an accountants' view to determine whether or not to save a person who is in the water.

I do not for a second think poorly of the Captain or the crew of the Kim Jacob. They are all honerable men, whose intentions were to save my wife and I, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart for that.

What I HAVE shared here is that this could have been accomplished without destroying the Triumph with us onboard, and as I was drowning, their lifeboat would have been a good choice to deploy to get me, as opposed to not.

Would the KJ have deployed a lifeboat if one of their own fell overboard?
That is a very good question. Can you answer that please?

It was broad daylight. And the challenge of retrieving their lifeboat via the cables could have easily been resolved by just towing the lifeboat off of their stern.

But, what I continually ask EVERYONE is: How would YOU FEEL about deploying a rescue lifeboat if YOU were in the ocean, drowning????
  #985  
Old 10-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
Evidently the sea state was such that a recovery of the life-boat would have been extremely hazardous to the life-boat crew and rescued survivor had he/she been recovered by the boat. Had the boat not been recovered getting the boat-crew and survivor aboard would have been as difficult as simply recovering the survivor alone multiplied by the number of people on the boat. At times in command one must weigh the greatest good against the least loss. Triage. I doubt the captain's decision had much to do with material cost



While heroic--and perhaps motivated-in part-by his decision concerning the life-boat--unless he had an executive officer as capable of manning and commanding the ship in the event of his own loss, the captain's efforts were foolish. His foremost responsibility is/was the safety of his own ship and crew
In the first place, saying that it would be just as dangerous for the crew of the life boat as it was for the man in the water is not true. The man in the water was slowly dying. He only had a short time remaining until hypothermia would render him incapable of fighting anymore. Then he would sink, without coming back up, unlike the dozen or more times he managed to come back up for air.

The crew in a lifeboat would have a lot more time to resolve the issue of extraction from the lifeboat back up to the deck. And they would have been dry and warm while dealing with that situation.

So, saying that the crew in a lifeboat would be in the same danger as the man in the water, multiplied by the number of crew, is simply wrong.

And again I ask YOU: How would YOU FEEL if you were the man in the water about using a lifeboat, or not? Stop the rationalizations and logic to explain why it is OK to leave the man in the water, and just answer how YOU WOULD FEEL if you were in the ocean, drowning, about deploying a lifeboat to get you.
  #986  
Old 10-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverknow View Post
Doug, Why tell everyone here on sailnet about the Ebay boat to begin with. It's not like there's 1000's of sailors here that might be interested and would have run the bids up. Even if that didn't happen you might have alerted someone to find the boat/broker and steal the deal out from under you. Remember a deal is not done until you have the title in your hands. You might be better served to keep future deals to yourself???
I agree completely. For whatever value, I didn't bring it all up until the auction was over and my friend had "won".

If the seller was an honerable man, a done deal is a done deal, and we could all talk about it, as much as we would enjoy.

So, as much as I spoke prematurely, only a piece of **** "seller" could create a mess out of this AFTER the auction was over.
  #987  
Old 10-30-2011
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Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
Could it be that someone who believes that he is going to buy a yacht half way across the world, on EBay, for a fraction of its value...may not have the resources to be artful about the process?
Oh Boy, thanks a lot.

How about this concept: I thought the deal was in hand, and assuming, (big mistake there), that the seller would follow through with the process and therefore our "agent" would travel to Turkey, confirm the vessel validity, and along with a couple other "confirmations", we would make the final payment.

As it turned out, the steps we were following led to the failure of the scam artist in scoring any money from us.

AND, wait for it....... by my talking about this, here on this blog, OTHERS were also saved from being taken by this scam artist. It is a small world, and we sailors help each other more than we hurt ourselves when we talk to each other.

Think about it.
  #988  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
I agree completely! It is ludicrous to try to use an accountants' view to determine whether or not to save a person who is in the water.

I do not for a second think poorly of the Captain or the crew of the Kim Jacob. They are all honerable men, whose intentions were to save my wife and I, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart for that.

What I HAVE shared here is that this could have been accomplished without destroying the Triumph with us onboard, and as I was drowning, their lifeboat would have been a good choice to deploy to get me, as opposed to not.

Would the KJ have deployed a lifeboat if one of their own fell overboard?
That is a very good question. Can you answer that please?

It was broad daylight. And the challenge of retrieving their lifeboat via the cables could have easily been resolved by just towing the lifeboat off of their stern.

But, what I continually ask EVERYONE is: How would YOU FEEL about deploying a rescue lifeboat if YOU were in the ocean, drowning????
Good..but now need to ask is it fair to say that Master of tanker should place 4 or 5 crew members in life treathening situation as well in order to save you?

I wrote that is stupid for me for sure to discuss price of the human life against material costs but we are talking here now about one life for 4 or 5. In this case one is less than 5 I think.....

And it is bit strange for me that after being rescued you are continuously traying to to say that Master should lower lifeboat with his crew in it.......

Honestly speaking if I find myself in any kind of life-treathening situation for sure would not call for even one to help me if there is risk that he can die together with me...prefer to die alone (hope will never happen but...)

Not to mention that you are doing this from nice sofa after being rescued....strange.....

And don't try to say that it was safe to do it...not to me as I have sailed oceans for years and well familiar with all when high seas are about.
  #989  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
Jon,

As I keep bringing up, how would YOU feel if you were floating around / nearly drowning, for over THREE HOURS while people were on their deck standing next to TWO RESCUE LIFEBOATS?

Stop telling me how wonderful these people are, and tell us how YOU WOULD FEEL as you sunk, and only regained the surface after you vomited and expelled the water from your body; only to do that again, and again, and again, for over 3 hours?

How would you feel after that experience about using or not using any rescue life boats for MOB cases if you were drowning?

Simple question Jon.
That's a fair question, impossible to answer with certainty, of course... I suspect I would feel very much the same as you did at the time, although I would imagine there would be a pretty heavy dose of kicking myself for the mistakes I had made that had gotten myself into that situation to begin with... And, once I had made my way back to the TRIUMPH, I would imagine there would be no freakin' way I'd leave the boat a second time until a secure tether to the KJ had been established somehow... (going by my recollection of your story, I may have misunderstood something about that particular chain of events)

However, in the wake of my rescue, if I ever summoned the nerve to relate my story - as you have admirably done so here - I would simply hope that I would exercise a bit more restraint, and temper my remarks about the actions of the ship and crew that came to my rescue, and refrain from using a word like "inhumane" to characterize their actions... But, hopefully we'll never know the definitive answer to that...

Here's a video from Canadian TV on the rescue of the crew of the s/v SANCTUARY, shows what a risky business bringing 2 boats together in a seaway can be... At about 1:20 in, you can clearly see how close one of the crew came to getting crushed between the 2 boats, that was an extremely close call:

NBC News: Cruise ship rescues 5 from sinking sailboat on MSN Video
  #990  
Old 10-31-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
I agree completely! It is ludicrous to try to use an accountants' view to determine whether or not to save a person who is in the water.
Then I am missing your point somehow.

You said at one point something to the effect that the Master told you (perhaps during the calm water exercise on the way into port) that he was concerned about being able to retrieve the lifeboat in the conditions extant at the time of your rescue.

Since you repeat your position that the boat should have been deployed it would seem that you believe that once aboard the lifeboat you and the crew of the boat could have been safely recovered even if the lifeboat itself could not.

So I'm left with two candidate conclusions:

1. You would have a lifeboat crew (three to five people, people just like you) risk their lives to come after one person, you.

2. You think the risk to lives of the life boat crew was not significant and therefore the only reason for not deploying the lifeboat was concern over the economic loss of the lifeboat.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you are not uncaring about the lives of others. That led me to consider the policy pressures the Master might have been under. What else might I conclude? Help me out here.
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