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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2011
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Lets also talk about crew or lack of crew, along with crew experience too. I've seen pics of one fellow single handing a Beneteau Figaro II doing mid teens in 30-40 knots of wind down wind, surfing! He was knocked down a few time, popped right back up and away he went! Some on here would consider that boat NOT to be ocean worth, yet the design spec is single/double handed racing ACROSS oceans! Not to mention it's a bendy toy!

I did a race last February? blowing 20'ish at the start, hit upper 20's to low 30's later, Myself and another 30' boat stayed out, meanwhile, the fellow in the 37' C&C had to go back in. Why, He was not setup with ANY reefs in the main, rollerfurling jib.......the other boat and myself, had 4 jib options, and double reefs available to us! Some would consider my Jeanneau a non windy day doable boat. It does fine in 40+ knot winds. I have not been on an ocean, but still in 4-6' waves in puget sound.

Design is some of it, building materials some of it, as is crew, and how easy it is to shorten sail, and type of sail is exposed in a given condition etc. One IMHO can not say it is JUST boat design or manufacture. Heck, frieghters get sunk in hurricanes, meanwhile a 30 somthing foot sailboat goes thru with out a scratch! I know why, less wind in some cases will sink the sailboat, and the frieghter will go thru it!

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Old 08-07-2011
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This shure went off the rails fast lol.. I saw the title and said to myself finally the thread I been waiting for

Just my 2c$ ...After looking at a bunch of info and researching LOTS of boats , It came to me no matter which boat I end up with .........It MUST be able to take Heavy Weather even if I never go "around the world" just hanging off the hook it Must be able to weather the storm ( in style hopefully with rig intact).

This is the driving factor for me & the #1 reason I was looking at keelboats primarily ,now I understand it's more than that...
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2011
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I think it doesn't really mater about the boat but the skipper like others have said. the other day it was blowing about 20mph or 30 there were tons of big sailboat out there sailing with just there geneo and i was out on my motor boat barley able to go over 5mph cause of the wave but i saw a little 14' sailboat out there sailing with a main and a jib with his son he never tiped never came close but if he did the wrong thing that boat would esaliy of capsized. all about the skipper nothing to do with the boat. hell with it you could just drop your sails and motor.
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Old 08-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
It is pretty silly to think that only "real boats" can handle 45 knot winds and large breaking waves. A sailboat, much like any other vehicle, is designed for a particular purpose.

Is a Porsche 911 a "bad" vehicle because it can't handle icy mountain roads? Is a Range Rover a "bad" vehicle because it turns in lousy track times?

It is the same with sailboats. What the "best" boat is depends on where and how it is used. A great blue water cruiser would be a "bad" boat for inland racing. Your comment is like calling a screw driver a "bad" tool because it can't drive nails.
Now don't get me wrong, I do realize there are different boats for different purposes. You can compare two vehicles in the same catagory, for example two pickup trucks. Lets take a Chevy Silverado and a Toyota Tacoma. Even though they are both pickup trucks, the Silverado is far superior as its a full size pickup. More horsepower, more towing capacity, a bigger bed, stronger suspension etc. The Tacoma can still carry cargo but is limited to how much not to mention the towing capacity is much less of the Silverado. This does not mean the Tacoma is a bad vehicle, just that the Silverado is much more of a truck inside and out. Naturally the price tag is higher on the full size truck. So you pay less with the Tacoma but end up picking up some limitations.

If I was ever caught in a storm, I would much rather be in an Oday 37 then my Oday 22 regardless of my experience no matter if I am in the lake or gulf. I see the 37 as just much more of a sailboat, a lot of boat there. So with my limited cargo capacity and lighter rigging and smaller vessel, I would take a big risk trying to make a crossing, even a gulf crossing I would not try. Then again, mine is not made for that she's more of a lake or coastal boat. Where the 37 can do all it wants in the lake just as I can, plus non-stop trip to Florida keys. I also bet its much faster then mine. Another example, how my rudder broke clean in half out in the lake in 25kt winds. That would have never happened to my Cal 25 in 25kt because it was much more sturdy and solid, nearly twice the displacement and was simply more of a sailboat. It could do anything mine can as good or better plus more, well ok maybe not turn as good but thats about it. My 22 is a shallow draft vessel and can even be trailered. Thats about the best two advantages of mine against the others I can come up with. I don't have a trailer so scratch that plus I still don't like shallow water yet so another scratch.

At last, if there are two blue water cruisers of same year make but different models, one would have to be better built then the other. A storm would put them both to the test and if any sailboat is considered blue water I would hope it would be able to handle a typical storm.

This all said, anyone have an Oday 37 they would like to trade for my Oday 22? Just kidding of course, I absolutely LOVE my 22 but she's just not quite as much sailboat as some of the bigger boys at the marina. I will say she is one of the prettiest but her good looks won't save us from a storm, once the storm finds out she is "taken" and no asking her out, it will really get violent. In the end, a big boat can sail in a smaller lake but a smaller boat can't always just sail in blue water unless they want to risk it all, even their lives.
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Old 08-07-2011
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You are still using items that make sense, yet not. In the trucks, are you comparing a Chevy 1500 to a toyota? if so, very equal. If you are comparing my dually CC duramax to a typical 15 series toyota......I can put a loaded Chevy 1500 or a toyota equal in the bed and still have some payload room, granted not much.....

To compare your 22 to a 37, again, two different creatures, two different design specs etc.

Also, just because you lost a rudder, does not mean it was not designed strong enough. Who is to say in the last 20 some odd years your boat has been sailing, that someone did not ground the thing, once or twice or three times. Your last trip out was the "straw" that broke what was unseen breaking in the rudder. There are a few folks I know of with 40' boats that have had some rudders break! so it is NOT the fact you have a 22' boat!

The smallest boat to cross the atlantic, IIRC is 7 something feet, maybe 6'! so a small boat can do large things. maybe not comfortable, or speedy, or fun or _________

People can sometimes make or break a boat as much as the boat itself breaking!

Marty
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Old 08-08-2011
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even boats like the VO70's end up breaking. they have impecable crew and skipper and spend millions upon millions of dollars with R&D, but sometimes mother nature puts everyone into a reality check.
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Old 08-08-2011
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I am actually comparing a full size pickup, Silverado to a mid size pickup a Tacoma. A Tundra would be near equal since that is a full size. Your dually is way more truck then a Silverado. I am talking just about every last catergory other then MPG which is an issue with the high prices of gas. Parking is also more of a problem but what you get back in return is way more truck. No matter how you compare those trucks that dually is clearly a step up. Well maybe the Silverado has more acceleration but everything else is above and beyond. The price tag is higher on a dually for a reason, you are getting much more vehicle. Sure a Silverado 1500 can try to pull a super heavy yacht sailboat on a trailer but the dually most certainly can and without breaking a sweat or risk breaking anything on the truck. The Silverado might could get that yacht home but don't be surprised if a new transmission needs to get placed on order. I am trying to also figure out something the Silverado can do that the dually can't? Racing I suppose but pickups are not made for that. If I want to race I get a sports car with a 6-speed manual. Not everyone needs a big dually but at least if you do, its there.

I guess my point in the ending without taking crew into consideration and just comparing the boats, bigger is better out there when swells start getting in the 10ft and higher range. What is the rule of thumb for wave height vs boat length before it could capsize? Wasn't it if wave height exceeds 60% or more of the boat length, a capsize is likely? If so mine could capsize in near 9ft swells where that 37 would have to be near 15ft swells before it becomes a problem. This makes me think that 9ft swells, although pretty big, would not seem so big when you have 15ft more of boat and 14,000lb displacement vs a 2600lb vessel. Once the crew does as much as they can, its up to the sea worthiness of their vessel and mother nature to decide their fate now.

My comparison is not necessarily lake cruisers vs blue water cruisers but more of two vessels of similar size and type. Even if both are on lakes, if the weather spikes up (and in lake ponchartrain believe me it does), most likely one boat will be safer then the other. An example, mine is hands down superior if compared to my brother in laws Venture 21. That Venture even though was only a foot shorter was less then half the weight of my Oday 22. I would rather be in my much heavier boat while a storm comes through. Yet another example, when I storm strikes I would rather be in that Venture 21 then a 16ft sailboat. I guess anything else under 16ft would be a floating coffin if a heavy storm plows through no matter if you're in a lake or sea.

At last, I almost feel like a few times in this thread I am talking nothing but bad about my boat and other boats that size. Shame on me because I am certainly not meaning for it to sound that way. Mine has NEVER done a thing to me other then her rudder breaking which I am starting to come to the conclusion it was half MY mistake anyway. Truely she is a great sailing boat in many conditions and I will admit to that. She has paid for herself, over and over again if you compare the dollar value to the fun and enjoyment she has brought me since I bought her.
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  #18  
Old 08-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OtterGreen View Post
even boats like the VO70's end up breaking. they have impecable crew and skipper and spend millions upon millions of dollars with R&D, but sometimes mother nature puts everyone into a reality check.
Simple and well said, heck even a Tanker can catch hell out there in storms. Anyone seen some of those videos on youtube with different merchant ships taking on storms and super high seas? This video scares the living $HIT out of me... ‪Merchant Ship in a Storm Force 10‬‏ - YouTube Keep watching, it gets worse especially after the 4:00min time mark. Man I don't think ANY sailboat would want to be out there in that. The ship in this video is a 12,000 tonne beast and its still catching some hell!
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Old 08-08-2011
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There are some pics floating around, about a world championship in Opti's......blowing 20+, waves in the 20-30' range, looked kinda fun frankly.

By the way, my dually "IS" a Silverado! just happens to be a different model of silverado vs the smaller GVWR ones. IIRC there are some 40 models and versions of silverados! My silvarado is pretty small vs my navistar dumptruck, which can handle the silvarado in the bed with some payload to spare!

Something you need to also remember, if the wave length from top to trough is equal to your boat, your doomed! Hence why tankers sink in hurricanes, and smalle 30-50' sailboats make it thru. They operate like a cork and bounce thru, the tanker get pushed under by the waves! or the wave crest to crest is about the same length as the tanker, the midle of the tanker is out of the water, she breaks in half, and goes down. So bigger is not always better for many reasons shapes and forms.

More than one way to look at the issue at hand.

Along with, who is to say the broken rudder was your fault, other than you went out in some mid 20 knot winds. I did that in Lk Washington with an 8' plywood pram I built myself at age 12! My stepdad built a Glen-L 21 CB sailboat, simaler to your Oday, we sailed that a few times in 30 knot winds too! again, no issues.

There are plywood 22' boats used for across ocean races. IE transat's!

V70's, while many $$ spent designing etc. they crew IS pushing the limits of said boats, normal in race conditions.

Personally, I have issues with folks who try to put limits on what is a good or bad item for a given use. If I look at Americas cup boats from the early 1900's, compared to todays SB's major difference. Evenlook at the Indy style cars from the early 1900's, vs today. Record speed at one time was mid 20's? now over 200 MPH.

Ay way, off to work.

marty
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Old 08-08-2011
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Go or No-go for offshore.

Lets face it. The wise experienced Captain/skipper will not go offshore in foul weather. Which is different of being caught offshore by foul weax.
Then the skills of Capt & crew comes into play on surviving said foul weax.
But one trick that has really kept me in the good graces with God is to go slow. You should not be in a hurry to be any place. Your vessel will have an easier time and less stress by slowing down and riding over the waves and Not Plowing through them. Another thing is not to panic. Panicing is a killer in more ways then one.
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