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  #181  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWhy View Post
There isn't enough support for the wayward lost skipper's actions to develop a serious fight. Hence, the Hunter effigy got rolled out for a lame public hanging instead. There's always a pound of flesh to be paid, you see. Stay sharp, or be next.
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  #182  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
To the very pro Hunter set, let me ask you: Does this line of reasoning apply to all manufacturers across the spectrum? Does say, the fact that a new Honda Civic is built with thinner construction than a new Mercedes of the same class automatically translate to Honda bashing? Do we follow a train of thought that both the Honda and Mercedes would crack up the same under identical circumstances? They wouldn't.

Where do you draw your line on what you will honestly comment on regarding a manufacturers construction methods?

I, for one, not being a Hunter expert at all, didn't know they classified what I assumed to be coastal cruisers as "Blue Water". To me, that's not a passage making boat because it's built thin and because of it's design. I understand this point can be argued, but it's my opinion.

I certainly can't understand Smacks assertions that the classic plastic would have faired worse, it makes no sense in light of the difference in the way they are built.
Chris, the car analogy isn't a good fit. When we think of family cars, we have in mind well maintained highways, no more harrowing than in-shore, good weather sailing. When speaking of the bow rollers on blue water passage makers, we probably should talk about Land Rovers instead. If a wannabe, urbanized Ford F150 falls down a ravine after breaking off its winch, we'll have a similar conversation. I don't know where I stand on that. In both cases, for Calabrese or the hypothetical ravine, I can shrug and say, "Don't care. I wouldn't have been there, and for sure not with my drawers around my ankles."

When we first heard this story, I'm certain each of us went through our mental checklists. Nope, wouldn't've left ahead of that storm. Nope; wouldn't've parked it where he parked. Nope; woulda hauled anchor long before it got that rough, engine or no engine. Nope; would've just cut the rode and clawed my way out if it came to that. And, nope, would've bridled it good and tight, and put out snubbers and 200' of nylon. And, no way would I be caught dead on a death trap like that one. (Hmmmph.) Nope, no fool am I. I'm safe. (Even though the staysail and trysail haven't left the storage locker the past three seasons; let's just not tell anyone.)

Motorcyclists and pilots are the same way. Roadside deaths that make the news are analyzed, newbies educated, habits scrutinized, and the rare lesson to be learned noted and maybe acted on. Oddly, aside from Robinson head speed, we don't generally blame the bike or aircraft. And even then, it's clear always that the rider or pilot that's at fault. Which is why this fixation with Hunter is so interesting.
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  #183  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeWhy View Post
Google is your friend.

Most recently, Rule 62 wrecked on the rocks in a storm off the Bahamas last Nov., with loss of life. Imagine the scorn shucking and second guessing here times 10.

More generally, perhaps appropriately enough, rule 62 in the AA rule book is an admonition to not take yourself too seriously. (Me, I'm having a home brew and reading this. There isn't enough support for the wayward lost skipper's actions to develop a serious fight. Hence, the Hunter effigy got rolled out for a lame public hanging instead. There's always a pound of flesh to be paid, you see. Stay sharp, or be next.
Thanks for explaining- lol. I'm staying low and movin fast.
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  #184  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
To the very pro Hunter set, let me ask you: Does this line of reasoning apply to all manufacturers across the spectrum? Does say, the fact that a new Honda Civic is built with thinner construction than a new Mercedes of the same class automatically translate to Honda bashing?
Nope, not at all. I sail a Hunter and I'll admit it's built thinner than a true bluewater boat. But you don't need a tank to drive to the grocery store. I don't know of any Hunter owners, besides this guy, who don't understand the limits of their boats.

Anyhow, when someone says that Hunter designed something specifically to fail, you do have to take that as a bash.

And one more thing, would a skipper and owner of a boat in the infamous 1979 Fastnet, sail a Hunter today? Yes, he would, in fact has for last six years here. And he loves the boat.
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  #185  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PorFin View Post
Jon,

Respectfully, I disagree. I've got no horse in this race, but it seems to me that you are in fact bashing Hunter pretty hard. That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Just be honest enough with yourself to recognize it and admit it.

For example, I would be a absolutely amazed to find out that the Hunter designers are sitting around a conference table in Alachua, FL going to great lengths to deliberately design a ground tackle system that looks good but will ultimately fail. That's a lot of work, what with all the variables involved.
Of course, even as devout a Hunter-basher as myself (grin) would not assert that the manufacturer is deliberately designing their systems to fail… It’s just that in their apparent effort to make anchoring more convenient, and by maximizing the self-launching and retrieval of anchors without risking damage to the topsides, they have – in effect – construed an arrangement (at least on some of their models I’ve seen) are literally “designed to fail”, at least if you believe the laws of physics to be a determining factor…

Look at these solutions to bow rollers from Hunter:



OK, someone, help me out here: What conceivable reason or advantage is to be gained from such an absurd degree of projection from the stem?

Those rollers likely have no more than 1/3 of their overall length attached to the hull/deck… Anyone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the physics of leverage should appreciate that such an arrangement will increase the leverage moment and loads upon the deck exponentially, WAY beyond a more traditional and sensible location of the main roller closer to the deck… Why on earth would a designer/builder want to do that?

Then, you take this sort of needlessly leveraged configuration, and attach it to a relatively tiny section of the deck behind the stem… Because of the deck cut-out and lifting hatch to gain access to the anchor locker and below-deck windlass, the loads from the roller cannot be spread and supported to the entire foredeck structure, they are concentrated to a tiny triangle of deck forward of that lifting hatch… From the close-up photo below, looks like we’re talking about an area of deck of perhaps 2 square feet… That translates to a LOT of force potentially concentrated in a VERY small area…



In addition, at the very least, I would expect to see a mini-bulkhead or some sort of athwartships stringer tabbed into the hull at the aft end of that deck section, to provide rigidity and support to that very critical portion of the deck… Sorry, but I don’t see any evidence of such engineering or construction…

And finally, there is no substantial caprail beneath the roller at the hull to deck joint – once the chain jumped the roller, there was very little of significant structure in place to impede the chain from beginning to saw through the hull’s laminate…

Obviously, many here will not agree, but I see a very poorly conceived and constructed system, “designed to fail” when subject to the sort of snatching loads any proper ground tackle system a 42-foot boat might be subjected to…

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorFin View Post

You also stated:

"Obviously, we don’t know the precise chain of events that occurred that morning, but it was obvious the roller had completely self-destructed well before the boat was in the surf line… "

Why is it obvious that the roller "self-destructed" well before it reached the surf line? I seem to recall someone mentioning that they saw the roller intact on the boat on the beach.

I can also easily imagine a scenario in which the roller failed coming over the top of that breakwater -- the rudder gets caught and the boat is turned 90* to the rode, so the repeated shock loading on the roller is perpendicular to the designed axis. I don't think it reasonable to call that a design failure.
You’re right, I don’t know with any degree of certainty how much the roller system had been damaged, at what point in the chain of events… I’m simply guessing there, of course…

However, this pic taken shortly after the boat reached the beach, shows the roller to already be tweaked at an “awkward” angle, to say the least… And, of course, the chain had already sawed through the hull – perhaps it’s just me, but I would classify that as evidence that a significant failure in the system had already occurred… (grin)



And you’re right, an extreme sideways load could have created an extreme degree of damage not normally anticipated… Still, a good roller system should be designed to handle heavy side loads, having to deploy a kedge anchor could be one example… In any event, a shorter projection forward, and a lower moment of leverage upon the roller is ALWAYS gonna be better…

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm saying that no boat, put in exactly the same circumstances would have survived intact. Period. This was a boat anchored against a lee shore in a freakin' hurricane. To try to compare boat-build quality in a situation like this is silly. The bow roller is just one gear failure of many.
More precisely, this boat was anchored against a lee shore in a near-gale, nothing more, at the time this drama began early that Saturday morning, when a news crew was already on the scene, and the boat almost on the beach…

Look at the video back in Post #2, winds were no more than 35-40 mph, max…. The marine reporting data from the south island of the Bay Bridge tunnel confirms this, even sustained gale conditions did not develop in that location that morning until well after the boat was already in the surf…

I think this is significant, because those conditions might be similar in severity to the point at which a skipper in an open roadstead or exposed anchorage might decide it’s time to vacate the anchorage… Many people will say that they don’t lie to their roller anyway, this guy should have been using a snubber or bridle, and so on… But, when winds approach gale force, and you decide it’s time to bug out of an anchorage before it becomes a death trap, it’s precisely then that your roller system will be put to the test…

I would guess that the conditions that morning when he found himself in distress were similar to those at the start of the Cabo San Lucas disaster in ’82 which wrecked numerous cruising boats anchored off the beach in a similar situation… Any disaster in which a sailor as capable as Bernard Moitessier loses his boat should forever serve as a cautionary tale for all sailors. The Pardeys wrote a great post-mortem analysis of what went wrong, and by far the most common gear failure experienced by the fleet in their desperation to get out of there, was that of anchor rollers and ground tackle systems…

It’s inexplicable to me, that this guy made no attempt to sail out of that situation – especially on a boat where the sails could have been deployed without even leaving the cockpit… My hunch is that he was simply paralyzed by fear and or confusion, or simply had no confidence in his or his boat’s ability to do so… (he didn’t even have to “claw offshore”, a simple close reach could have gotten him out of there) But, in order to do so, he would have had to deal with his anchors… A rope rode would be easy (assuming he would have had a knife), but his chain rode, not so much…

I’m gonna give the guy the benefit of the doubt, and presume he might have actually tried to get out of there… If he was unable to, this is one likely scenario as to why he – or anyone else – might have been unable to do so…

IMHO, one of the most terrifying scenarios imaginable is to know it’s time to vacate an anchorage in rapidly deteriorating conditions, but to be physically unable to attempt either raising, or casting off, an all-chain rode… Needless to say, no need to ask me how I know this… (grin)

Here’s what I believe might likely have occurred, if such were the case… The point at which the chain began sawing through the hull, is precisely at the gap between that bulbous thing that I suppose functions as a caprail (grin), and the anchor roller… It is very easy for me to picture the chain jumping the roller, and quickly becoming so tightly wedged between the roller, and that fiberglass caprail… With the windlass located belowdeck in the foredeck locker, the angle of the rode over the rail is increased even more, jamming it even more quickly, and perhaps precipitating the cutting through the hull to deck joint almost immediately… At such a point, even the most capable skipper might have been doomed… Without something like a portable angle grinder at hand to attempt to cut the chain, sailing off the anchor and out of there would no longer have been an option…

We’re never likely to know all the details of what transpired that morning, of course – I doubt Mr Calabrese even knows that with any real clarity… But it seems to me highly probable that the inherent weaknesses of that boat’s ground tackle arrangement might have contributed, or at least seriously limited the options that even the most capable crew might have taken…

Y’all are free to believe what you want to believe, of course – but to those who believe that the design and construction of that boat within a few feet of the now-missing stem does not exhibit some SERIOUS deficiencies, well… Dream On… (grin)
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  #186  
Old 09-06-2011
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Does anyone seriously believe this guy would have been safer in an Island Packet with no motor? IPs can't tack without a motor half the time on a good day. What about a Gemini or even a Leopard? The guy made some bad decisions, and is paying for them. I imagine that there were people who had the opportunity to talk him out of some of the bad decisions, but can also imagine that they wanted him out of their marina more than wanted him to stay safe. Of course that is just my imagination, but as long as we are making stuff up I figure I will join in.
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  #187  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Here’s what I believe might likely have occurred, if such were the case… The point at which the chain began sawing through the hull, is precisely at the gap between that bulbous thing that I suppose functions as a caprail (grin), and the anchor roller… It is very easy for me to picture the chain jumping the roller, and quickly becoming so tightly wedged between the roller, and that fiberglass caprail… With the windlass located belowdeck in the foredeck locker, the angle of the rode over the rail is increased even more, jamming it even more quickly, and perhaps precipitating the cutting through the hull to deck joint almost immediately… At such a point, even the most capable skipper might have been doomed… Without something like a portable angle grinder at hand to attempt to cut the chain, sailing off the anchor and out of there would no longer have been an option…


… (grin)
The other thing is a one has to know their limitations. Given the situation with your woman and cat on board, and the boat's capabilities and that the hurricane was approaching with higher winds and waves, I probably would not have tried to sail away from the anchorage. I would walk or swim to the safety of the land (which he did). Let's give him credit for getting his crew off safely, might not have happened if he tried to sail off.

Anohter thing, in the pics of the Hunters, the potted flowers add a nice touch don't you agree?
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  #188  
Old 09-06-2011
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Just some comments for y'all:
1. The guy does live on the boat, but he does sail it "They left Florida on July 4 for Virginia before being caught in Hurricane Irene." So it is not a marina queen.
Just curious, where does that information come from?

Frankly, given the condition of his running gear, I find that a bit hard to believe...

Although, perhaps it could explain the demise of the engine, if he motored up the Ditch from Florida with a prop that fouled... (grin)
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  #189  
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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post


… (grin)

… (grin)


(grin)
Your (grin)s become tiresome.
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  #190  
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I don't think they make those extended rollers anymore.
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