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Which Boat? Help..

4K views 36 replies 13 participants last post by  emoney 
#1 · (Edited)
After 20 years of being boatless, we have been looking around the Vancouver/Vancouver Island area for a good "re-starter" boat. I have literally looked at hundreds of 22' to 28' examples in the $7,000 to $15,000 range and am disappointed in the condition of nearly all of them. The only two that seem decent are a 1986 Mirage 25 and a 1985 Hunter 25.5. The owner's want $16,500 for the Mirage and $14,500 for the Hunter. Both really clean, Hunter pulled, painted and new thru hulls this year and has a 2010 survey. I know that they are both overpriced but how much of a premium does one pay for not inheriting someones junk? Someone must have an opinion on these two?

Which one is best built? Best sailing and will keep the best re-sale if we move up. ALL help on this appreciated.:confused:
 
#2 ·
If you buy a clean, well cared for boat, it will only lose value over time. If you buy a dirty boat that needs a little work but is essentially sound, you can put in some sweat equity and have a decent boat that you may be able to turn around later without much loss of value. The problem is that in your budget, you can only find old boats. The number of older boats that have been really well cared for isn't that great.

Good luck.

Dave
 
#3 ·
Between those two boats, the Mirage hands down. It is a Robert Perry design and the builder had a good reputation on quality as well. Both those boats seem more than a little pricey to me, but boat prices can vary a fair amount region to region, so someone local to Vancouver or more familiar with the area might be able to offer more info in that regard. What kind of sailing are you looking to do? What do you want out of the boat? For that kind of budget I would bet you could get a real nice Catalina 27 with a trailer from any number of areas, and have enough scratch left to have it delivered up to you.
 
#4 ·
I'd agree that both are somewhat overpriced.. but there is some value to being able to buy and sail as opposed to buy, work/fix, then sail. And, more importantly perhaps, keep in mind that these are asking prices and what they'll actually sell for may be somewhat less.

A serious offer from a qualified buyer could change those numbers.

On the face of it I'd try for the Mirage first, but for our area the Hunter may well be fine is she's passed a critical survey.
 
#6 ·
I'd go south of the border. i purchased both of my sailboats in seattle for much better price than what i found in Vancouver area. canadians seem to be "emotionally attached" to their boats and asking some funny figures for them. canadian dollar is strong. For a boat built in US you will only pay 12%HST on the amount you paid in US. You take it out in 60 days and you pay no sales tax in US. Simple and efficient :D
 
#8 ·
Mirage vs hunter

Thanks for you thoughts on this, they were as expected, just wish that we didn't have the "slightly higher in Canada" thing going on. With the dollar the way it's been for quite awhile, prices should be same as US. Even far better prices in Ontario, maybe it is the moronic real estate prices here make everybody here pay more for everything than anywhere else.
 
#9 ·
Looked at Hunter

Well, we went and looked at the Hunter 25.5 and although really clean and well looked after, it did seem more like a "condo" on the water. The deal breaker for me was that the gunnels/deck has a slope so walking in any kind of sea would be difficult. The owner's dog just slipped overboard at the marina yesterday. The first Mirage (a 27') was a bit unloved but after the Hunter seemed like a "real boat" So now we are down to Mirage 25 and 27, O'Day 23 with 27' Hotfoot keel and a beautiful 2001 Cape Cod catboat with very little use, it is only 22' but feels huge, seems very stable. It's a must sell so is priced about 1/3 of all the other Catboats I have seen.:cool:
 
#10 ·
The slope (camber) on the decks is a non issue... in fact it makes seating and movement more comfortable and easier while heeled (and the boat is meant to be heeled)

As to your other 'choices', probably all reasonable boats but to be looking at moderate designs like the Mirages, AND a Hotfoot 27 AND/OR a Cape Cod Catboat means that you really aren't sure what kind of boat you want. These are hugely disparate designs in terms of accomodation and performance and is like comparing apples to wingnuts.

I think you need to take a step back and try to refine and define just the type of boat you really want/need. Then start shopping similar types rather than this wide range of different boats. Best thing to do would be to hang around marinas and yachtclubs and try to get rides on some different boats so you have some idea of how they feel, handle, and behave.

Don't rush into anything until you've sorted that out for yourself......
 
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#11 ·
Choices

I know my selection is all over the place, but I have been looking for months and, I guess, boat condition is playing a bigger role than I had planned, that is why we looked at the Hunter. I have to disagree on the camber on the gunnels though, of the dozens of boats I have looked at and after spending a week sailing on a Pearson 36 I have never seen anything like this. It seem that it is there just to gain more space inside, people have trouble boarding the boat.

Both Mirages are pretty much perfect and seem to fit our needs the best but the other two remaining (O'Day with Hotfoot keel) and Catboat are just really good, well priced boats that have been looked after well. We are going for a sea trial on the catboat on Sunday. So, value and condition may be playing too much of a role......But economics are important these days. Thanks for your insights.
 
#12 ·
Both Mirages are pretty much perfect and seem to fit our needs the best but the other two remaining (O'Day with Hotfoot keel) and Catboat are just really good, well priced boats that have been looked after well.
I'm not familiar with any of these boats but if they are vastly different as has been noted, why buy a boat just because it's a good price when you found a different type of boat that "meets your needs"? I'll assume that the Mirage is still in your price range since you took the time to see it.

If you are concerned about the economic situation and you'll lose money owning a boat (any boat in your price range), I don't see the financial sense in buying a boat just because it's a good price if it doesn't meet your needs.

Now, if you just want any boat to get you out on the water, I'd get that. It wouldn't be something I'd do personally, but I'd understand it better.

Not that you care that I understand any of it. :D I'm just trying to follow your logic.
 
#13 ·
Choices

I guess that it seems that the cost of the boat is the most important factor in getting this boat...My fault, well the price of any purchase is important but it is the condition and sailing qualities that are most important, we can afford all the boats in question and certainly don't mind spending money to bring one up to to perfect condition. The catboat in question is priced at about 30% of comparable ones listed around North America, is only 10 years old,has a recent survey and the insurance company will re insure it easily, the Yanmar has only 130 hours on it, a very well built, strong boat that has a lot of character, the sea trial on Sunday will tell a lot more. The 25 foot 1987 Mirage is very well cared for boat that appears to need nothing and that is reflected in the fact that the asking price is $16,500 vs $8,500 for the 27' Mirage that needs some sweat and $$$$ invested. We have eliminated the Hunter which leaves just 4 to choose from. We have owned a 21 ft keelboat years ago so have some sailing experience and ideas of what we need. Moorage is always an issue here in Vancouver and I am pretty much guaranteed moorage for the 23' choices but need a bit more confirmation for the 25' and 27'. ....No moorage...no boat.
 
#14 ·
True, moorage here is a huge stumbling block.. and smaller boats are easier to find space for. More and more people we know are going to Pt Roberts or Blaine and putting up with the border hassle, esp with the larger boats. AFAIK Mosquito Creek in N Van seems the most available, but being behind the First Narrows bridge gets to be a pain, esp with a smaller slower boat.

I get that you want a boat... logical or otherwise we'll all get that. But buying to a price point alone probably won't ultimately make you happy and you'll be shopping again (or simply selling out) far too soon.
 
#15 ·
price points

I agree Faster, buying for price point is not the way. I guess that the Catboat crept into the equation that way a bit. In the East, where they are popular, these boats sell for between $18,000 and $49,000, here it is less than $7000 and seems to be in at least as good condition and better than a lot. The fact that it is a 2001 build in the Sam Devlin type "Stitch and Glue" method with very little use and it does have a lot of character. We will see after this weekend's sail!

I have moorage for the 23, length at Fisherman's Cove which is a 20 minute drive from our home, I do like the location a lot! Thanks for your insight on this, it does make me think more objectively.
 
#16 ·
Fishermans' is a good location... are you at Thunderbird? A bit pricey....

The catboat style is a character boat, and some place that very high on their 'must have' list.. the beam usually provides a lot of space for the length. What you'll likely lose here, and this is as important to many too, is good weatherly light air performance. Cruising here in summer is generally a light air situation and if you're continually frustrated trying to get some boat speed you'll end up motoring more often than not.

Also, who built the boat? Not likely any production yard.. while an owner built boat can be an absolute work of art, and better than factory, in many instances this won't be the case. The problem here is that appearance alone won't tell you how well the construction was carried out. You may not see (yet) the results of the use of inferior fasteners, poor lamination, etc etc so extra caution is required. Eyes wide open and all that.... (not to mention survey, survey, survey)

You mention an ODay with a hotfoot keel.... more details? Again, who made the changes?

A true Hotfoot 27 is a fun, fast boat with minimal amenities but will sail dizzying circles around the Catboat.. a modified O Day will be another matter. I do think that for what you want, as a move up from 21 feet would be one of the Mirages, or something similar, esp if extended cruising to Desolation etc is in the cards.
 
#17 ·
Well, down to 3 boats now. The Mirage 27 which is reasonably priced needs a new diesel engine and has some issues with keel caulking. Not had a survey for 6 years so will leave it for somebody with less stuff on their plate time wise.
 
#18 ·
Faster. I actually know the builder of the boat, retired teacher who went to work with Devlin for 3 months to learn the methods and then built is with the help of his friend, a high school shop teacher with a few boat builds under his belt. I have crawled all over the inside of the boat and everything looks very well finished. It does have a 1 year old survey which looks very good. The boat owner's insurer has said that after he cancels his insurance that they will re insure me without another survey. The O'Day 23 is at the West Vancouver Yacht Club and I will be viewing it this afternoon. I'm not sure who added the Hotfoot 27 keel (5'3") but saw pictures on the hard, looks very well executed and is an obviously a well cared for boat, I will find out the particulars this afternoon. It comes with 7 sails and Evinrude 8 hp Sailmaster (has marine head) You are probably right about the Mirages...The 25 is likely the perfect choice for us.
 
#19 ·
Hi Kilby,

I have a similar budget to you, and am looking in the same area for something about the same size. Don't worry though, I don't want a catboat! :)

You're right about the prices seeming high - these Vancouverites seem to love their boats, but the ones I've seen just don't seem to be shifting, especially if they're nice examples. It would seem to me (with my non-existent knowledge of Canadian bargaining etiquette) that someone going along waving a wad of cash and being prepared to haggle will get a good discount off a given price. With that in mind, there's a nice CS27 on the island that looks sorted and hasn't moved in about 6 months. There are a lot of others just like it too...

Have you tried being cheeky and asking what people would accept?

For the real bargains, I too would be prepared to look south - I'm looking at one that I'd very much like to get, as the lead in the keel and the fittings are probably worth more than what I think a quick cash offer could get it for. That said, it's supposed to be mingin' (as they say in Scotland), but if one is prepared to put in some graft, I'm sure you can find a diamond in the rough.

Good luck!
 
#20 ·
Narrowed down to two

Armchairsailor2.

Lots of great boats for sale on the Island but moorage is hard to come by. People in Comox are buying boats with moorage then selling them cheaply to people who don't have moorage, kind of sad, as well young people aren't interested in yachting anymore and the industry is concerned. Looked at a very nice, reasonably priced O'Day 23 with many good modifications, same owner for 33 years, 7 sails very clean, asking $5,800. We are down to two though, the unusual Catboat and the clean, overpriced Mirage...Catboat sail on Sunday, will be interesting. Buying in the US is an option that many take advantage of but my life is a little too busy right now for that...I'll shop locally.
 
#23 ·
Down to two now, Catboat and Mirage

Eliminated all but the Catboat (which we had a sea trial on Sunday) and the Mirage:confused:. Beautiful weather in Vancouver but no wind. Solid, secure and slow in light winds. Going to have one last look at Mirage today or tomorrow and then decide. Both really well cared for boats Catboat is 2001, Mirage is 1987. Mirage is $10,000 more than the Catboat so will see if a reasonable offer will get it. I know, everybody has correctly pointed out that these are so different that we should really think about what we want.....but we like them both!
 
#24 ·
Good luck in the decision... here's hoping for more breeze next time.

Have you looked south of the border at all??
 
#25 ·
south of the border?

Have had friends that have purchased from the states but have so much going on in life that I don't know where I would get the time, as well, my wife would have to see whatever was chosen and she works a LOT! This time we will shop at home. It was interesting to note that boats for sale on Vancouver Island were, for the most part a lot better maintained than Vancouver boats, I guess it is the busy lifestyle and time needed to spend on your boat. One I looked at at Burrard had so much growth on it that you couldn't see the propeller for the barnacles etc.... Fairwinds and Deep Bay boats were the cleanest, followed by Sidney then Victoria....Maybe just a lot of the owner's are retired and spend more time on their boats. Interesting though.
 
#26 ·
Yes, there are some sad examples of neglect out there... we were at the Goldstream marina at the end of Saanich inlet this past month... some real sad sights there.

Hard to understand why someone would bother to keep up moorage payments (not cheap!) and fail to maintain the boat itself....

Keep in mind, though, that you can get to Bellingham (most days) quicker than you can to Vancouver Island.. and the delivery may well be shorter too....
 
#27 ·
Cape Cod Catboat eliminated

:)Well, regretfully we have eliminated the Catboat from our possibilities. Although it is beautifully built and an even better deal financially. This is our first sailboat in over 20 years and if we are to use our first boat as our "training" boat, we decided that a sloop would be best as if we ever moved up size wise it would likely be another sloop.

So we are actively looking for a boat priced around $12,000 in the Vancouver area and there seem to be lots of choices and apparently there will be more as the Fall season arrives. Lots of stuff for sale out there at low prices but we want a well maintained boat so will be patient.

Anybody in the Vancouver area that likes Cape Cod catboats....I know where there is a beautiful example at a fire sale price! (crome@telus.net)
 
#28 ·
... there seem to be lots of choices and apparently there will be more as the Fall season arrives. ...
We bought our boat in October and the seller was anxious to get it off her hands so she wouldn't have to pay another months' slip fee, insurance and winter haul out. It was only three days between having our offer accepted, sending the certified check and then jumping on the boat to bring it home. You might want to be prepared to move on things quickly if you find the boat that you want and the seller wants it gone before another month of fees come around. If someone can take it off their hands more quickly, you might lose out.

The downside to buying in October was that it was just in time to haul out for the winter. So we had a beautiful sail back to our marina and then had to suffer all winter, anxiously awaiting spring. :)

Good luck!
 
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