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Old 09-12-2011
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NJ/NYC/Hudson River Advice and Boat Suggestions

One day while going for a jog along the banks of the Hudson River in Palisades Interstate Park I see this beautiful blue hulled sailboat anchored in front of Edgewater Colony. I didn't take any pictures or study it well but it had to be at lest 35'. Might have had 2 masts. Was there a few days and later I saw it sailing north. It reignited my dream of getting a sailboat.

For a couple of weeks now I've been giving it some thought and doing some research and hoping that next season I might start sailing in some fashion. But I have a lot of questions I was hoping people in the area might be able to answer. Also some general questions regarding boats too look into.

Cliff Notes Err... this got to be longer than I realized. Looking for advice on boats for the area and advice on destinations and time to get there for day, weekend, extended local trips. If you sail in the area please let me know what type of boat you have, and what are some of the benefits of it and limitations for these waterways So far thinking about something in the 25-30' range with less than 4' draft.

I've had friends and family with power boats but they've always been outside the city. Either down the shore or on the Long Island Sound. Living in the NYC area makes any decent place to go for a swim a bit of a trek.

If you're on the Hudson River, please tell me some local sails you take, especially overnight/long weekend cruise destinations. Ones where you can go for a nice swim would be helpful. I can google beaches and marinas, what I'm looking for is some real world trips people have taken with details like the make/model of boat, marina they left from, where they sailed to, where docked, anchored, etc, how long it took, any tide/wind considerations they had to make for their trip. Don't need specifics like all the way points and exact times but something to give me an idea.

I'm familiar with some marinas and destinations in the area and have been using Google Earth to explore a few nights this past week but since I've never been on a long trip on a sailboat or

I plan on taking an ASA course or two and likely charter a few times before buying. Any sailing school recommendations would be good. The club in Croton really has me interested as they have 24' Rainbows and 26' Pearsons available for members.

I can't stop looking at boats and trying to learn more about them and trying to understand my needs.

My sailing experience is very limited to a bit of dinghy sailing on a lake many years ago. (Hence the ASA course plan). Though I've never owned a boat I've spent some time on power boats, helping to maintain sometimes, learning about boat safety, rules of the road, etc. Spent some overnights.

Boat Requirements:
Hopefully some people can give me some recommendations on models that might fit my needs in this location. I've been looking at a lot of different models online. Hoping to help narrow down what I'm looking for.

I've been trying to come up with requirements for what I would need for a boat. Would like to hear advice from anyone that sails in the area regularly as to what features, specs are important for sailing the around Manhattan, up the Hudson, Down the Shore and on the LI Sound. MAYBE even down the coast to Florida every couple of years or so. And how my requirements below will handle the conditions in the area. Or if I have any misinformed expectations.

I'd be looking for something fairly small and used. Don't mind doing a lot of cleaning, sanding, varnishing, painting, some electrical, upgrading cusions, etc, but hoping to find something that can sail and power. I'm pretty handy and have a few tools and like to learn how to fix things but want something I can sail right away and improve as I go. Seeing lots of boats well bellow $10k with this economy and time of year and hoping to find something in the $5k area if possible. Don't mind old.

I don't have room for a trailer at home so would need to rent a slip. Prefer the NJ side. Closest places to me in Englewood Cliffs and Edgewater don't permit sailboats so it looks like Weehawken, Hoboken, Jersey City or possibly Alpine if I can get a shallow draft boat. I was hoping to find something closer to the George Washington Bridge but that doesn't seem possible and may change my plans.

Size
Looking in around the 25-30' range. This seems to be about a minimum range to meet my requirements. Looked at some 22 footers that seemed nice but lack an enclosed head which I would really like to have.

I think I'd feel a little safer on something a little bigger. Was thinking about building a PocketShip at one point but it seems very small for this area and the cost of building one seems to buy a nice used boat.

What's the minimum size boat I should be looking for based on my needs?

Shallow Draft....
Even if I don't plan on renting a slip at Alpine I'd like to be able to rent a transient there from time to time to access the park. The marina is only about 4' deep so a boat with a swing keel would be nice. There are also some little shallow beaches/landings right off Shore Trail that look like nice spots to anchor near. I don't want to land on the beach but don't want to have to anchor all the way out either.

Would any of the boats the have a shallow draft pose a problem as far as sailing around Manhattan? (Hudson, East Rivers, Hell Gate, etc)

I've read a bit about shallow fin keels, centerboards, swing keels and there pros/cons. Would like to hear some real world advice about sailing around manhattan/shore/sound with these types of boats.

I also don't want a boat that heels excessively.

Speed
I don't need anything that will win a lot of races but is 5.5-6 knots reasonable for these sizes in this area? Can someone give me some real world sailing speeds cruising around here? The theoretical hull speeds of the boats I've looked at seem to be in this range.

Accomodations
I'm just over 6' tall and would like to have at least some spots where I can stand up straight in the cabin as well as being able to fit comfortable in one of the double berths.

Most of the time I'll be sailing alone or with just one person but want the ability to go out with another couple or a group of friends for a weekend trip. Even if it's a little tight. Not looking for hotel style amenities, more like a floating rustic cabin.

Don't plan to live aboard but would like to take overnight and week long trips and possible stay a night or two at the dock for a change of scenery.

Would like to be able to sleep at least 4 adults, 2 double berths would be ideal, but 1 double V Berth and 2 singles is fine.

I really like the configurations that have a double berth under the cockpit.

Would be nice if the V berth was enclosed or at least curtained off.

Ideally 4 people can relax and layout to sun. 2 in the cockpit, 2 on deck. Don't mind if the 2 on deck aren't perfectly flat (won't be in boat sizes I'm looking for) but just that it's somehow possible.

Enclosed Head. I prefer a marine toilet with a holding tank and not just a porta potty.

Shower. Would like to have the option of taking a shower in the cabin even though I won't do it frequently. Just a way to rinse/cool off from time to time. Is there any way to get just a holding tank plumbed in the floor of the enclosed head and use a solar shower? That would be fine for the few times I'd use it since many boats in this range don't seem to have hot water heaters or even pressurized water.

Galley Simple sink and 2 burner stove with ice box is fine. Adding a 12v fridge or cooler would be nice. Don't mind adding another battery and possibly solar panel to keep it cool in a future upgrade.

Dining Would like at least room for 4 in the cabin.

Engine. Prefer inboard diesel but outboard is fine too. Any thoughts on this? Getting an outboard would mean more room inside for a smaller boat and the ability to have the double berth under the cockpit that I like.

Steering. The smaller boats seem to mostly have tiller steering. I understand the benefits of it and have read many threads on the subject. If possible I would prefer to find one with a wheel steering to make it more comfortable for guests in the cockpit. Are wheels on older small boats unreliable/prone to failure?

Boats I've been researching

in the 22-26' range it seems I'd have to make some sacrifices but there are some nice older Catalinas, Hunters, O'Days, Pearson's available that meet most of my needs. Concerned about smaller sized boats as far as speed and safety though.

27' seems to be the sweet spot and I can get most of what I'm looking for. Again mostly the same brands.

30-33'. Maybe a little more size than I want but look like nice boats. Only concern is that boats this big in my price range would need a lot of work.

Catalinas seem to be popular and have decent reviews on here. The layout of the deck makes it seem like at least one or 2 people can lay out on the forward deck.

Hunters seem to have bad reviews but others really like them. Wheel steering is more common on them but the shape of the deck makes it seem like someone can't lay out on the forward deck but maybe on the cabin top? Any experience?

The others brands are fewer and not always available in a shoal draft version which is an important requirement unless someone can convince me it's not really safe for the sailing I want to do.

I've put a lot of thought into this, hoping some of you can fill in the theoretical with the practical.

Last edited by NJSailDream; 09-13-2011 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Added cliff notes.. i type too fast to realize how much I write :)
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Old 09-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJSailDream View Post
But I have a lot of questions I was hoping people in the area might be able to answer. Also some general questions regarding boats too look into.

I've put a lot of thought into this, hoping some of you can fill in the theoretical with the practical.
NJ,

Welcome!

Quite an initial post there -- you've obviously given this some thought.

My initial advice would be to slow down and catch your breath. At this stage one of the best things you can do is to get out on as many different boats as you can to see how they handle, how they sail and how they fit. You will then be better equipped to decide which of the features you've listed above you simply can't live without, which would be nice to have, and which are simply not important to you. Ultimately, there is no perfect boat (at least for most folks) and compromises rule the day. Generally(though not always), the smaller and/or less expensive a boat is the more compromises you'll be forced to make.
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Old 09-13-2011
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You could go around Manhattan in a row boat if they would let you and the currents were timed correctly.
You need some time at the tiller or wheel before you understand the questions you just asked.
Good for you for wanting to go sailing around NYC but do not put the cart before the horse.
Have fun whatever you do.
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Old 09-13-2011
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Thanks for the responses so far. I type fast and didn't realize I wrote so much. I added cliffnotes:

Quote:
this got to be longer than I realized. Looking for advice on boats for the area and advice on destinations and time to get there for day, weekend, extended local trips. If you sail in the area please let me know what type of boat you have, and what are some of the benefits of it and limitations for these waterways So far thinking about something in the 25-30' range with less than 4' draft.
I've never been on a sailboat with a cabin before and never even boated in this area other than the ferries and tourist cruises so I have no idea what boating is like in this area.

Finding info has been pretty hard. A good link I found was US Coast Guard Auxiliary, 1st District SR, Division 05, Flotilla 03, Lower Manhattan, NY Click on Boating in NY Harbor link on the left. The sections on Day Sailing and Weekend Anchorages really got me thinking it's a decent place for a sailboat. I've never seen used sailboat prices as low as they are now so I'm a bit anxious.

One of my biggest concerns though is that on the rare occasions I do see sailboats on the Hudson, even north of the GWB on what seems to be a fairly windy day, they have their sails down and are under power.

Been doing some more reading tonight and came across this blog post. Hoping to find more info like that to give me a sense of what passages I take might be like. Until next year so I can try and decide what I should do. Labor Day Weekend Cruise - 300 NM in Five Days - Messing About In Sailboats
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Old 09-13-2011
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Where to begin? I think you're asking for alot..for $ 5K

So, Just as a point of reference..I have a 34 ft Sabre. The specs will tell you that it sleeps 6, but I will tell you that 4 is about as many as I'd want to spend a weekend with...3 is pretty comfortable, 2 is ideal. I don't have a seperate shower..it's part of the head...no aft cabin...just a V berth and a settee that converts to a double.

26 pearsons are great boats, but you'd be very uncomfortable with 4 people for a weekend..( Think Camping ) .the headroom will not meet your over 6 ft frame.

My old 29 Bristol would meet most of your criteria...no aft cabin, gas engine..but it had a wheel conversion...and would take you anywhere you wanted to go...
I'm sure there are other vintage boats out there that would do the same..
Cape Dorys and the like.

I haven't done a search on catalinas or the like so I don't know where the 25's 27's 30's would fall into your budget.....I guess my point is that you need to be prepared to make some compromises...or increase your budget..

The Hudson is tidal..and the currents can run very strong at times...like this past weekend after all the rain. There are times when you are not going to get home against the current without either timing it properly...or starting the engine and be able to make 4 or 5 knots against a current. That could be one reason you see sailboats motoring.
The River was Brown all weekend from the runnoff and the currents were unbelievable..not to mention the amount of debris...(logs..and trees..floating by)

The Marinas on the Jersey Side right on the river..Lincoln Harbor and Newport are pretty rough...Boats take a beating in there due to the ferry traffic and the wakes...I would not want to keep my boat there. ( spent a few months at Lincoln Harbor)
Go visit these marinas...and take a good look at the poor condition of the docks and the amount of snubbers and docklines the boats have deployed..as well as how much they bounce around.

The Marina's at Liberty State Park are probably a little more protected, and pricey.
I can't speak to NJ Marina's further north or the Manhattan side..though, I imagine 79th street is pretty bouncy....Great Kills on Staten Island might be an option ( moorings)

Schools, there are several on the river...True North in Jersey City..( j-24's ) Manhattan Sailing School..( j-24's) Colgate..( their own design Colgate 26's ) . to name a few. They will give you a good feel of Hudson River Sailing..

Where to go for a weekend. Sandy Hook, Atlantic Highlands..maybe Brielle or Point pleasant NJ...Staten Island..City Island, Manhasset Bay..( Port Washington) Or up river..

I'd suggest that most of the Jersey Shore is more than a Weekend Trip...if you expect to spend a day at the beach...

With a shoal draft..maybe Rockaway..or Jamaica Beach...?
I confess that I am unfamiliar with that area..

Centerboard boats are fine...I've owned 2...just maintain the cable..

Given the number of boaters in the NY/NJ metropolitan area..and the Amt of $ ...it's surprisingly challenging to find quality places to keep a boat..compared to other locations... I might suggest considering...a place like City Island..or Manahasset Bay...or even somewhere on the Connecticut side.... of the LIS.

I'm not going to discuss your longer range plans..maybe.. Florida..at the moment..it's probably too far in the future to make sense right now.
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Last edited by Tempest; 09-13-2011 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 09-13-2011
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We kept our boat at Liberty Landing and it was very nice but is expensive. It is great to have protection from all the wakes on the river.

Sailing on the river opposite LL is not terrific since there is so much traffic there. Winds tend to be either upstream or downstream much/most of the time so you need a boat that points well and is decent downwind. Sailed on a friend's J105 and it was great fun but they are much over $100k. Smaller Js and similar boats do not have the creature comforts you would want and are still pricey for your budget. The reality is you need a reliable engine in the harbour area. Lower New York bay (below the Verrazano) is better sailing but not as convenient for you and traffic getting to Staten Island can be bad.

Good luck with your search. Take your time to learn about the boats you are considering and the various areas.
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Old 09-13-2011
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Tempest, thanks for your detailed reply. Was very helpful.

Budget. I know I want to compromise a lot to get something really cheap when starting out.

The must have requirements for me would be:
  • Safe size for sailing and anchoring on these waters (any idea what that would be?)
  • Enclosed head, preferably with deck pump out. (Shower would be nice but not required)
  • Ability to sleep 2 comfortably (4 even if it's a little tight)
  • Draft less than 4' (very important)
  • Some sort of galley that won't get used very often.
  • The ability for me to stand up at least in some areas below decks.
  • Can be singlehanded

That's in addition to sound hull, mast, spars and decent engine. Hoping if I look hard I can find something that needs a little TLC and not a "project boat"

When on the water I figure 50% single handing, 35% with just 2 people, and maybe 15% with more than 2.

15% of the time just hanging out on the boat at the dock, 15% short day trips, 40% overnighters at a local anchorage, 25% further away 2-3 day trips and maybe 5% week+ trips. Or something along those lines.

The marina situation on the Jersey side really bummed me out. Something near the GWB would have been perfect for me but none of the marinas around that area allow sailboats and I've read a lot about the wake problems in the JC area.

Von Dohln seems to be deep enough looking at the chart and north of the majority of ferry traffic. But no sailboats. Englewood Cliffs would have been great but too shallow. I like Alpine because you really feel like you're out of the city but need less than 4' draft and hope that the area maintains that depth.

Lincoln Harbor isn't too far and is in a nice setting. There were some reviews that indicated they wake problem has at least been minimized. Need to check it out.

Because of the marina situation I was thinking of something in the 15' range with a small cabin (floating tent )to crash for the night that could be launched from Hazard dock and stored in a garage but that seems like a pain and I don't know if I'd feel comfortable on something that small on the Hudson and I wouldn't be able to go very far.

If there was at least a mooring field somewhere between Edgewater and Ross Dock (on the jersey side) it would help make my decisions easier. If the boat's going to be more than 30 minutes away might as well go further down the shore and find cheaper/nicer marinas and a bigger boat. That's not what I had envisioned though.
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Old 09-13-2011
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We keep our 1967 Tartan 27' up at Nyack, NY (on the Joisy side of da rivah) at: Nyack Boat Club - Home
You won't find a cheaper place and it is a great club as it is a working club - the members all chip in on labor.

There are very few, if any places to anchor on the Hudson for overnighting or anchoring near Manhattan. The closest area might be inside Sandy Hook in Raritan Bay for anchoring or a guest/transient mooring. There is an anchorage north of the 79th St. boat basin but it is very bouncy there at times.

I'd suggest you look at a boat like mine, Tartan 27' which would be considered old to very old if your price point is $5K. There is some stand up room up to 6' but it is tight below for more then 2 or 3 on an overnight. 3' 6" with draft with center board up but a Cadillac when it was built back in the 1960's. The Pearson 26' mentioned is also a nice boat which has no center board but is a smaller cousin of my boat

City Island is also a possibility you should look at. Tempest gave you very good feedback by the way.

The cost for summer mooring or slip is only a portion of the cost of owning a boat. You must take into account the fees for winter storage as well. This is an item you must be aware of.
Good luck.
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Old 09-14-2011
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Killarney_sailor,

Thanks for your input. I've looked into Liberty Landing and from what I can tell it's one of the better places to keep a sailboat in the area. Checked out your blog, you're quite a ways away now Looks like fun.

During the normal season here, May-Oct, is wind usually a problem provided you time the currents right? Err... what I mean is, are there enough good sailing days to give the motor a rest?

I'm still trying to get a handle on narrowing down my list of potential boats so I can really get to know them better. Also trying to stop looking at bigger boats and be more realistic.

Looks like 25' would be a good sized first boat for me. Considering most of the sailing schools around here use j/24's I'm hoping 25' would be a decent size to feel comfortable on local waters. It's the size where I can get most of the amenities I'm interested in and still keep a short draft and small boat to learn on.

Any thoughts on if the following three boats are death traps in these waters?

Right now the older Catalina 25's caught my eye with the pop top and 6'6" headroom. 4' draft less than 3' with Wing Keel. If I can find a swing keel, should point better when down compared to wing right? Nice sized cockpit and good cabin for 2 people. 4 could fit for a cramped overnight. The type of friend's you'd share a tent with

Hunter 25' seems to have a little better cabin and I've seen more with a wheel but have read too many negative opinions on Hunters. Not that I think the Catalina's are all that much better. The catalina 25 seems to be faster.

The other 25' I've been looking into is the Cape Dory 25'. Cabin isn't that great compared to the Hunter and Catalina but similar price range and sturdier construction. A tracks, rollers and plywood and a separation between the head and v-berth seems possible. Minimal galley which should be fine.

Don't know what to think about the engine compartment. Seems to take up a lot of cockpit area and restrict the size of the motor. Doesn't seem to turn either which means not as great handling as with a transom mounted outboard but it won't lift out of the water and is forward of the rudder.

Have a feeling the Cape Dory's might have less problems with leaking and rotted deck cores too. Nice looking boats with ample brightwork. Not as spacious but would feel safer in a well constructed boat.

The Cape Dory 28' is on my "next boat" list. Trying to keep that short until I get the first boat

Need to stop thinking and start sailing. Might try and see if I can get the ASA 101 course before the end of this season!
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Old 09-14-2011
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I'm probably being a little too cautious regarding boat size. Feel better after seeing this Catalina 25 video Galveston Bay Thunderstorm Catalina 25 Sailboat - YouTube
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