Knock Down Anxiety - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 44 Old 10-06-2011
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I didn't mean to imply that you could never get knocked down on jib and main alone, but on a lake without big waves I still say you'd have to try pretty hard to get it done. Most boats (I say most because my experience with swing keels is non-existent) will round up after reaching a certain point of heeling. Once you're over far enough for the rudder to become ineffective, you're rounding up whether you like it or not. Some boats are getting the cockpit wet before they round up, while my boat won't even wash the windows at 50 degrees (the point that it does round up). My boat sails perfectly fine at 40-45 degrees, but I know it's slower than if it's flatter.

How many degrees of heeling is dangerous? Hard to say but for most boats it's the point of having water come in the cabin, or people start falling off the boat. If you're flying a prudent amount of canvas for the conditions, odds are that you'll be fine.


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post #22 of 44 Old 10-06-2011
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Cockpit filling with water CAN happen, and yep it will help "create" a knockdown LIKE scenario... but like John Said, depends on the boat. Mine will fill with water over the rail, it'll fill the cockpit, AND round up simultaneously... I did it once. Again a spinn might hold it there (your splashboards are in right?). In fact after some reading, I have to make sure my lazarette (specificially starboard), is latched... because it is 8 foot long, and 2 foot deep, that much water would effectively flood the boat.

Best thing to do, is secure the whole boat (tight)... take it out in some rough(er) weather and push the limits of the boat, to see what happens... Controlled environment is the key... Life jackets, etc. I did it, to see what is possible.

My conclusion? You have to bounce through waves and get a gust, and fall off (picking up speed)... the boat will round up, but it may scoop a wave at the same time. Important, you have to WORK at a knockdown with just jib and main.

For the record.... LAKES sometimes get big waves too. Especially when the stinkpot brigade of 25+ stern drives pass within 100 feet at 15 knots!
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post #23 of 44 Old 10-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JedNeck View Post
For clarity I don't run the main and 160 in 30+...just an example to try to bracket in the sane limit for my boat.

I have four headsails. A very light 160(down wind "gennaker", maybe), a 153% Genoa, a 130% Genoa, and a 110% #1 jib(wraps the shrouds by 1' when pulled tight).

At what wind speed, approxamitly, would I use each head sail? When would I douse the headsail and go to main only? When should I reef?
It is true what has been said, there is no real equation to this it is all kind of trial and error. But I always find it is easier to add canvas if the wind is light than to try and reduce once you are already over powered.

I have a 30 footer that I singlehand most of the time, and when it is over 15-20 I start to reef. I have had full sail (135% genoa and full main) up in heavier but all the boat wants to do is round up and I am stuck fighting weather helm all day, no fun. So if it looks like a good 25+ day I start with the main double reefed and the genoa rolled out to 100%ish and then just add as I go if it dies down, as it does on the Bay.
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post #24 of 44 Old 10-06-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHNOOL View Post
For the record.... LAKES sometimes get big waves too. Especially when the stinkpot brigade of 25+ stern drives pass within 100 feet at 15 knots!
Luckily the lake has a 8mph speed limit and is no wake Sept25-May5. So it's almost always just me out there. During the summer the Wakeboarding boats are the worst. But they can only play from 10:30-5:30. So I can catch the sundowners.

I figured this thread would bring a "feel it out" answer. I am thankful for the best advise you folks have thrown out.
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post #25 of 44 Old 10-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JedNeck View Post
For clarity I don't run the main and 160 in 30+...just an example to try to bracket in the sane limit for my boat. I have four headsails. A very light 160(down wind "gennaker", maybe), a 153% Genoa, a 130% Genoa, and a 110% #1 jib(wraps the shrouds by 1' when pulled tight).t what wind speed, approximately, would I use each head sail? When would I douse the headsail and go to main only? When should I reef?
.
Ideally, you use the right combination of head and mainsail to balance the boat. You have to find out what that is for your boat in your conditions. If you have a reef in the main and your smallest headsail flying and are still getting beat, it's probably time to head in, after dropping one or the other, or both and motoring in. On my boat, I consider my jib my "main sail" and tend to reef the main first.
You seem to want formulas, which sometimes don't lend them selves to sporting activities (lots of variables). It reminds me of once leading a novice Sea Kayaker on a crossing. He couldn't make it across, and when I came back and asked why, he informed me that his GPS told him he was moving backwards at 1/2 a knot. I told him to put his ******* GPS away and dig in with his paddle! He did, and we got across!
The book I recommended earlier is an excellent start. It explains why sails and sailboats, perform the way they do, in simple, graphic detail which we don't have access to here. Once you have that knowledge, formulas don't matter. You can see how the boat is responding to the wind and tide, and can adjust accordingly. Start underpowered, and work up. When in doubt... reef. If you are consistently sinking the rail, or need excessive rudder (more than 20 degrees), you're probably over powered. Learn your boat, simple as that. Oh...and you have a girlfriend who is not afraid of heeling? Consider yourself very lucky! Many never truly get comfortable with it. Whats the formula for finding a lady like that?

Last edited by L124C; 10-10-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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post #26 of 44 Old 10-06-2011
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Finding A Girl Who Isn't Afriad of Heeling

For me, what worked was marrying an ER nurse. They know absolutely no fear. It's a little disturbing sometimes to see what she's willing to stare down without blinking. A little heeling is nothing.
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"It ain't all buttons and charts, little albatross. You know what the first rule of sailing is? Love. You take a boat in to sea that you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of worlds. Love keeps her afloat when she oughtta founder... tells ya she's hurtin' 'fore she keens… makes her a home." Captain Malcom Reynolds, Paraphrased
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post #27 of 44 Old 10-07-2011
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For a moment there, I thought this statement was going a different direction:

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For me, what worked was marrying an ER nurse
... so every time I raise full canvas in a gale and get bloodied, she can stitch me back up.
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post #28 of 44 Old 10-07-2011
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I suggest some sailing lessons.
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post #29 of 44 Old 10-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I suggest some sailing lessons.
Well sure. That is always a good suggestion.

Given your sail options, I would suggest just starting out with your 110 and Main. If it is a bit blustery, start out with a reef in the Main as well. Get comfortable with the boat under shortened sail. As you gain confidence, then start flying that 130 more often and go without the reef in blustery weather. You will soon find out what sail combinations you are comfortable with for which conditions.

One of the difficulties where you sail is that there can be a big difference in the conditions to find out on the lake vs what is forcast or even what you can see from shore.

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post #30 of 44 Old 10-07-2011
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Because I know that JedNeck is a new sailor I would post what a knock down looks like vs rounding up.

First a knockdown from inside the boat.


and from outside at about 0:58


and a roundup that looks intentional to me. Notice that the roundup is much less violent than a knockdown (broach).


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Last edited by US27inKS; 10-07-2011 at 03:36 PM.
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