New guy here, need help picking a sailboat! - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree3Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 10-17-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
ritzone is on a distinguished road
"You haven't really defined your 'needs' yet, or told us more about you. You say you're a novice - OK. What's your budget? How old are you? Do you have a family? Where do you intend to sail? How long do you expect to keep the boat? What kind of sailing do you expect to do (daysailing, cruising, racing, etc.)? Do you have any other experience with boats/boating? Are there any classes nearby that you can take?"

Ok, heres me, in a nutshell:

My name is josh, Im a 4th year student at Rochester Institute of Technology studying mechanical engineering technologies. 21 years old. Ive worked tons of different jobs, but Im a welder by trade. Currently I work at a marina in Canandaigua, NY (still sort of new to the job) as well as an AutoCad instructor at a job training facility.

I am an avid vintage moped enthusiast (real mopeds, not scooters) and I rebuild them in my spare time.

No family (no kids that is).

I would be primarily sailing at Canandaigua Lake in NY or Smith Mountain Lake in VA (both sheltered water). I would be keeping the boat indefinitely. I would be doing mostly daysailing although my original intentions for this are to use the boat as a place to live over the summers here in Rochester (instead of paying outrageous rent) and sailing for fun.

Budget is a tough one, as Im in college, but I stated earlier that I would be looking at spending 4000 initial investment (i think I could swing that) and then paying progressively to restore.

My experience with boats is pretty limited, other than what ive done at the marina. I have operated a few power boats, such as my uncles pontoon and other boats at the marina. Like i said, no experience with sailboats, hence my wanting to learn.

There are classes around, but I need to find out when these classes are and where (aka, I havent found anywhere that publicly posts stuff of that nature... maybe im not looking hard enough).

Also, I have considered that sailing may not be for me. My real goal here is to find something that I could literally stay on (I camp all the time, so living on a boat would be a break honestly) and I know there are plenty of powerboats out there with cabins, but they are really freaking expensive compared to sailboats. So my take is this: Why not get something cheaper and more fun to learn? I like to feel out and get experience in all sorts of things, and sailing is something I am interested in learning.

Helpful?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 10-17-2011
jimgo's Avatar
Asleep at the wheel
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,916
Thanks: 71
Thanked 108 Times in 106 Posts
Rep Power: 3
jimgo is on a distinguished road
Yes, that's very helpful.

If you're serious about living aboard, you'll have to make sure the marina(s) are Ok with that. Not all marinas are OK with you living there full time. Weekends/weeks at a time are typically OK, but a 4-6 month season is another story. I am not familiar with either lake - are there size restrictions on the size boat you can put on the lake? Are there restrictions about motors/engines? How big are the lakes? You may find that you get bored after only a few sails. Of course, if you're really just looking for a "dockside condo", the boredom issue isn't really a problem since you won't be going out much anyway.

If you're living aboard, are you expecting to use a toilet and shower in the boat? There are some real, practical reasons why that isn't really the best of ideas. Of course, having to run to the locker room/bathroom isn't always fun, either, especially in driving rain or the middle of the night. Most boats in the 25 and below range won't have a shower (you can always retrofit, but that's a different can of worms). Some will have a portapotty or a marine head. Marine heads need to be pumped out (they have a storage tank). A portapotty, at least to me, is an "emergency use only" thing on a boat. They have a small holding tank under the seat, and you have to carry them off the boat to empty them. While the tank is "holding" stuff, it can get rather malodorous.

I know you mention that you enjoy camping. I would respectfully suggest that you sit in a few boats before you decide you want to live aboard for several months. A 20-22 is going to have a pretty small cabin. 25's give you a surprisingly big jump in cabin space, and I think you'll find that the extra space is welcome/needed. At 21, you want a boat that you can bring "friends" to, and a 20-22 that's your home is going to be very tight.

As to trailers, a lot of the basics were covered above. One thing that I read that really stuck with me is that all sailboats can be trailered. But the question is, can be they be trailered by you? Anything over an 8' beam requires a special towing permit. Much over 25' gets unwieldy, especially with the kinds of vehicles most people drive as their primary vehicle (including a Tacoma). Are you willing to pay to have it towed instead? I've seen some decent prices for having this done as a service, and you're letting someone else take some of the liability.

I'd suggest seeing if RIT has a sailing club or classes. Drexel did (though I never took advantage of them). The next option is to check with Sailing Schools - Learn to Sail with American Sailing Association and see what's close by.

FWIW, I found my boat by searching Craigslist, this site, SailingTexas, Sailboatowners, and a few other sites rather religiously.
__________________
- Jim
Home: Western Philly 'burbs
1980 Allmand 31
1975 Albacore 15


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 10-17-2011
jimgo's Avatar
Asleep at the wheel
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,916
Thanks: 71
Thanked 108 Times in 106 Posts
Rep Power: 3
jimgo is on a distinguished road
OK, just looked up the Canandaigua - WOW, that is a LONG, skinny lake! Another thing to consider when thinking about a sailboat is/are the prevailing winds. Are they conducive to sailing on that lake? That is, do they tend to blow across the lake, or down its length? Oh, and then there's the average depth. Canandaigua Lake looks like it was cut by the glaciers - I'm going to bet that it's fairly deep across most of it, but you still need to be conscious of the boat's draft. Smith Mountain Lake is wildly different from the Canandaigua lake. I'd bet Smith Mountain has smaller boats (22 and less) with swing keels, but that's just a guess without a firm basis. Are there many sailboats at either lake? What size do you usually see there?

Sorry if my tone comes off as condescending or negative, I don't mean it to be. And I'm sure others will chime in and contradict some/most of what I'm saying. We're at different stages and places in life, but as a fellow novice sailor and new owner who just went through a somewhat similar search, I'm trying to make sure your expectations are appropriately managed. Yours is a very "romantic" concept and I can see why it would be appealing, but it could wind up being a very expensive mistake. Much better, IMHO, to make an informed decision and know what you're getting yourself into.
__________________
- Jim
Home: Western Philly 'burbs
1980 Allmand 31
1975 Albacore 15


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by jimgo; 10-17-2011 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 10-17-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
ritzone is on a distinguished road
Believe me, I completely understand. Thats one of the reasons Im actually asking around before I do this because the idea of it is awesome in my head, but it could turn out to be costly as you say.

I couldnt tell you much about the wind on either lake, but I can say that sailboats are extremely popular on Canandaigua Lake, not so much on SML. That would be something I would have to research.

And I would be willing to pay to have it towed, although I am just worried my budget would suggest otherwise. I didnt know about the permit thing though, so thats nice to know.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 10-18-2011
jimgo's Avatar
Asleep at the wheel
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,916
Thanks: 71
Thanked 108 Times in 106 Posts
Rep Power: 3
jimgo is on a distinguished road
OK, good. I tend to be a bit blunt some times in the way I ask things or in my replies. As long as you understand the spirit with which the info is given, then we're good. Just remember, I'm just trying to help you hash out everything - nothing is meant as a personal attack.

How big are the sailboats on Canandaigua Lake? Or, another way to ask the question is, when you see sailboats, do most have cabins? From what I've seen, most sailboat cockpits tend to be a relatively static size (about 6-8' from the transom to the companionway). When you look at a boat, one quick "off the cuff" way to guage its size is to look at the ratio of the cockpit size to the cabin size (where I'm defining the cabin as the part forward of the companionway all the way to the bow). A 50/50 split is likely to be in the 16-20' range, for example. Smaller than 16', and you don't really find many cabins, so you'll have to find another way of ballparking Neither of these 'rules' are always true, but they aren't a bad way of ballparking the size. Now go over to sailingtexas.com and take a look at boats in that size range. For example, check out:

Diller Schwill (may be listed under Schwill yachts) 16
Com-Pac 16
MacGregor 16
Tanzer 18
MacGregor venture 21
Catalina 22
Hunter 23.5
Catalina 25
MacGregor 25

To be clear, I'm not endorsing any of these as the boat you should buy (and I own a Catalina 25) - I'm just suggesting that you look at the pictures there to get a feel for what the cabin is like in boats of the different size classes. The ones I listed are fairly common boats, so if you see something you like, you're more likely to be able to find one, unlike a Dufour or some of the others that are out there. Catalinas, MacGregors, and some of the other "production" boats also have a fairly strong group of aftermarket suppliers, which means it's easier to get exact matches for "stuff" for the boat when something breaks, and if you're buying a boat that needs work, stuff will be broken.

Oh, one other note - you mentioned that you want a project boat, but you also say you want to live on it. It's going to be VERY tough to live aboard a project boat. Boats are small spaces, and if you're doing refinishing, painting, or other things that require strong ventilation, you aren't going to want to be staying on the boat until it has aired out. And if the boat is a REAL project, you may not even have a good, safe, and dry place to sleep for a while.
__________________
- Jim
Home: Western Philly 'burbs
1980 Allmand 31
1975 Albacore 15


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by jimgo; 10-18-2011 at 12:32 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 10-18-2011
realestatedude's Avatar
REALESTATEDUDE
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: High & Dry in Central Ohio
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
realestatedude is on a distinguished road
Smile

As a power boater I likely know less than you about sail boats but my first thought is ... "isn't it a big deal to pull that mast every time you want to trailer your boat"? Also having owned a Rinker Captiva 190 and tried pulling it with a Toyota V6 I was soon the owner of and Ford F150 Super Crew. The 3400# of my little runabout was more than my Toyota could handle without whining like a baby. I just didn't feel safe pulling that weight with my Toyota. Also central Ohio is mostly flat land and you seem to be looking forward to some pretty hilly terrain.

Last edited by realestatedude; 10-21-2011 at 12:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 10-18-2011
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 26
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
HELLICONIA54 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ritzone View Post
Hello all! To start out with, Im new around here, but I found this forum as a result of some research I am doing in relation to my interest of buying a sailboat. And of course, I have a few questions and concerns.

#1) Im looking for a sailboat that is relatively easy to sail. I have never once sailed in my life, but I want to learn how to. Ive had a few people suggest a catalina 25, which I really like the looks of, but I have some concerns (which you will see in a moment).

#2) This question/concern should probably go in the Trucks/Trailers forum, but I wanted to keep everything together so I figure I will put it here: I have a 1997 Toyota Tacoma 4WD, sans towing package, and according to the factory specs is rated to haul 5000#. My question is, how big of a sailboat could I comfortably haul with my truck? I cant really find any good numbers on the weights of some sailboats I have looked at, but I figure some of you guys with experience would know! Also, im looking for something that I could atleast sleep in... If most sailboats long enough to have cabins would be too heavy to haul with a truck my size, just tell me.

#3) I am looking for a project boat... Nearly everything I do revolves around fixing stuff, and I feel I would have more of a sense of accomplishment if I bought a fix-er-upper and fixed it, then learned how to sail it. What are some things I should look for in buying an older boat, other than the shape of the hull (I atleast know that much!)?

#4) This may be a shot in the dark, but what would be a good asking price for a boat that meets my requirements?

Ok, so thats all I have for now. Please understand that I have no idea what I am really talking about, so these may be stupid questions! I am really eager to learn though!

Thanks in advance,
Josh
Ok,so to start with,Whats with every wanting a ship? LOL. Coming from Australia,I have no idea what a "Tacoma" is.What size motor? I have a Hartley TS16 Yup 16 feet long sleeps two can be towed by a Toyota camry 2 litre. 4 cyl. Whole thing weighs 360Kg's.Easy to sail.timber construct.lots to play with and i bought mine here in OZ for $2,800AU with trailer.Just a thought But not too good for long term live aboard.

Last edited by HELLICONIA54; 10-18-2011 at 05:32 AM. Reason: adding more text
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 10-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,847
Thanks: 10
Thanked 131 Times in 117 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Welcome to the asylum, I'm sure you will love it here.

All sailboats are relatively easy to sail, just go learn how to sail! It's maximizing the last half knot of boat speed that is tough. You should really ask yourself where you hope to go with sailing. If you think you might want to build up to larger boats or charter, you should really learn how to sail sloop. I guess to be fair, they are among the easier. One mast, two sails. But they are also the most common these days.

Trailering introduces an entirely different variable. The keel on a sailboat can make it tough to trailer, if it doesn't retract. They make trailers for full keel boats, but you need a deep ramp to launch them. There are boats with removable centerboards, which makes them easier to trailer, but are typically less stable. Secondly, you will have to remove the mast, so you have to be sure it's designed to do so easily.

Now, to totally leave the reservation, I favor cat rigged boats for lake sailing. Only one large sail in the front of the boat, typically a very shallow but heavy full length keel that makes trailering easy and many/most have been designed to trailer. Google Com-Pac sailboats to see what I mean. You will learn to sail on these, however, they would be very different than anything you might move up to.

Final advice... YOU DO NOT WANT A PROJECT BOAT. It will very likely cost you much more than a boat in sailable condition. Marine parts and supplies are expensive and the math rarely works. On any boat, you will have plenty of cleaning, polishing, tweaking and fixing to be fulfilled that she only floats do to your TLC.

Best of luck.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 10-18-2011
SHNOOL's Avatar
Stupor-user.
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East Stroudsburg, PA
Posts: 981
Thanks: 6
Thanked 30 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 8
SHNOOL is on a distinguished road
Ok, my tone was probably poor too.. Understand at 21, I SHOULD have thought like you! I'd have had a blast! but I digress, and I had NO cash at all.

Alright, skills you got on repairs (welder = tinkerer to me)... Mech E! Good gonzo's you can fix things for sure (I went the EE route, my buddies who couldn't hack it went the Mech E route - not a knock, just an engineering joke).

Ok, live aboard for next summer is what you are after... THAT explains why they steered you towards a 25. A catalina 22 swing keel, will be probably the "average" of everything you are looking for, the "jack of all trades" if you will... but I honestly don't think it'd be a great fit, more of that "master of none" part of that.

As others have said, if your intent is to live aboard (even for the 4-6 months)... make sure the Marina will allow you to do so. The 22 footer would be the 2 man tent. a 25 footer would be more like a 6 man tent, with an enclosed latrine.

Looking at the lake, and checking around to various marina's on that lake, looks like it is NOT uncommon for a 27 footer there. I know it must be deep as most the finger lakes are. So size is only a problem for towing, not for sailing, you likely could go as big as 32 feet as long as you could get it out of the water come fall (since the lake freezes).

OK, so learning... well, this is the next thing, I am going to go against the grain here, and say it is MUCH easier to sail a larger boat (to a point)... a 25 or 27 foot sailboat, is going to be infinitely more forgiving than a 16-20 foot boat, and infinitely still more forgiving than a sailing/racing dinghy. That being said, the smaller boats teach you faster (as it is literally sink or swim), so don't count that idea out either, nothing wrong with an apartment and a Lido 14!

OK... Here is a thought for you, since you live in VA, and school in NY... and your taco isn't gonna get you pulling a comfortable live-aboard type... (Remember a Lido 14 could be towed by a VW Bug).

TAKE WHAT I SAY HERE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, IT WOULD BE WHAT I'D do at your age with $4000 burning a hole in my pocket. It isn't right, it likely isn't smart, but it'd be a damned fun thing to do, and something you can tell your grandkids about when they grow up.

Buy a 27 footer, that has a trailer, or at least a 26 footer, better said a 25 or bigger boat with a trailer (that is sailable now might need work, but sailable - there are a lot). Get a boat with an enclosed head! Put it in a marina (remember marina fees here, as that'll likely run you about $1500 for the season). When it comes time to go home with the boat, RENT A UHAUL pickup to tow it home (or van)... it'll have plenty of towing capabilities, and it'll get it home for ya. Worry about putting it back in the water when you get to that the following spring.

OK, at 25 feet you are on the edge of FUN of lifting a mast, but 3 good college buddies, and you are set.

Live on the darned thing. Make sure to pick a nice marina, with showers, and laundry, and a clubhouse. Be the young punk kid with good taste that all the old salts wish were you (never be scummy or obnoxious drunk kid in the clubhouse). Crew for ANY of these old salts, offer help when they launch their boats... HELL invite the old salts out on your BOAT tell them you'd like them to skipper for you! Pickup crewing jobs on race crews while you are there (look for BEER can races run on weekends all summer). Enter them yourself if you can scare up some guys to crew for you.

Finally, enjoy your stay there. Help the dockmaster (because he is putting up with your keester being there all summer). Offer to do odd jobs for him... Hell make sure to offer him a beer or 2 when he heads your way (his can be a tough job at times, and he is an indispensable friend to have).

You'll be CAMPING full time for sure, especially on the smaller side of these boats, but a summer is definitely doable, and For GOD's sake boy, report back to us!

Websites that can help you find boats (sailboatlistings, sailing texas) likely won't help you find one on your lake (they can but mostly they give regions), try craigslist, and NOW is the best time to buy (maybe buy one on the hard in someone's yard, offer them X more dollars to allow you to keep it in their yard until spring, then rent that UHAUL and put it in the water in spring (get those college buddies to help you as a 25+ footer will be a pig to launch).

OH, here's one better, you want help in spring? I'll freaking drive up to help (you're about 4-5 hours away). I take my payments in beer! Hell I'll even help you shake the new to you boat down if you'd like. Just PM me when and where!

I am gonna say what a lot of these guys won't. You are young, we are jealous, go have fun! Just do it safely, respectfully, learn what you can, and enjoy it!

That is just my $0.02 from a 40 year old sailor who really is JUST now starting to enjoy sailing for sailing's sake again. I haven't been out of sailing, just not been sailing with the right attitude. Sounds like you got the right attitude, now go do it!

PM: me if you want to bounce ideas of boats you are looking at. Finally you'll likely be getting something bigger than I have now (your lake is larger)... I have a Dodge 2500, RAM and can tow a really large sailboat if need be, I'll again do it for beer and gas money.

OK GUYS FLAME ME AS AN ENABLER! hehehe. My wife is gonna know I am off my rocker now.
Runshari likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 10-18-2011
JimsCAL's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Glen Cove, NY
Posts: 2,392
Thanks: 2
Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JimsCAL is on a distinguished road
I owned an Oday 22 in the 1970s and kept it on Barnegat Bay in NJ. My then girlfriend (now my wife) would spend weekends on it in the slip at the marina all season. Boat had a fixed shoal keel (2 feet!) which was great for the shallow bay. And the portapotty wasn't that big a deal. Boat had a trailer, but I only used it for winter storage and one trip to Long Island when I traded it in on a Pearson 26. Boat was rigged for "easy" raising and lowering of the mast, but only did that in the spring and fall. The two of us could do that. We had a great time with that boat and we learned a lot.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Picking up a Mooring davidpm Seamanship & Navigation 7 06-26-2011 10:40 PM
Help with picking a marina leon764 General Discussion (sailing related) 8 04-25-2011 01:06 PM
Need help picking a beginner boat! WFerguson Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 02-13-2011 03:18 PM
Help picking a boat Morgan3820 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 5 05-06-2007 08:54 PM
Picking a surveyer gknopp Boat Review and Purchase Forum 13 10-13-2003 10:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:48 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.