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  #181  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentSailor View Post
Nobody is saying that cannot happen. They are simply saying that the plan you come up with at the time is not necessarily the best either.

Oh, and that trying to usurp control of the crew from the captain of another vessel through bribery is a Bad Thing - something I agree with strongly enough to post again in this thread. The captain of the vessel is responsible for his crew - you trying to step in and pay them undermines his authority to carry out that responsibility.
And the plan the Captain comes up with, (as in my case), might also not be the best one - thus the concept of WORKING TOGETHER.

The monetary reward concept would flow through the Captain, perhaps as he (if he chose to) asked for any volunteers.

That is not usurping anything; that is providing the Captain with an additional resource to use, at his discretion.
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  #182  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Doug, I honestly can't understand why you're getting so much flak on this thread. I think your advice is very helpful and, like all advice, one can chose to follow it or not. I've never been in a rescue situation at sea and hopefully I won't ever be. Your account has been very illuminating indeed and it's given me a lot to think about if I ever find myself in one.
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  #183  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by copacabana View Post
Doug, I honestly can't understand why you're getting so much flak on this thread. I think your advice is very helpful and, like all advice, one can chose to follow it or not. I've never been in a rescue situation at sea and hopefully I won't ever be. Your account has been very illuminating indeed and it's given me a lot to think about if I ever find myself in one.
Thank you very much! I am also amazed at the battle I am in to simply share some wisdom to apply as appropriate, based upon our hard earned experience.

More information is better than less. Two heads are better than one.
But nothing is as dangerous as a closed mind.

Have a great day!
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  #184  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
And the plan the Captain comes up with, (as in my case), might also not be the best one - thus the concept of WORKING TOGETHER.
Again, no-one is arguing you shouldn't. It is when you claim (as you did earlier) that you should take control of the rescue that people disagree with you. Working together to come up with a good plan is a Good Thing. Taking control of the rescue, when it involves the crew under the command of the rescuing boat's captain, is another thing entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
The monetary reward concept would flow through the Captain, perhaps as he (if he chose to) asked for any volunteers.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I read:
"And, you should also remember that money talks. Especially with people who frequently take home minimum wage. An extra $1000 ea., might inspire a couple of guys to jump into their lifeboat."

...to mean that you were offering it to the crew in order to sway their judgement. Captains are pretty often taking home somewhat more than minimum wage and hence are unlikely to be swayed by the offers of $1K to crew members so they risk their lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
That is not usurping anything; that is providing the Captain with an additional resource to use, at his discretion.
The crew is already his resource to use. If he determines their capabilities are not up to the task, they're not up to the task. An extra $1K isn't going to make them more skilled, just more likely to risk their lives. As a captain, offering inducement to place added risk on their lives (when the captain's responsibility is not to do so) is, in my opinion, a Bad Thing.

A plan is either good or bad on it's own merits. If you need to be bribing the crew (through the captain or otherwise), you are essentially admitting there are risks to the lives of the crew in the plan but you want them to try anyway, right?
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Last edited by BentSailor; 02-12-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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  #185  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by BentSailor View Post
Again, no-one is arguing you shouldn't. It is when you claim (as you did earlier) that you should take control of the rescue that people disagree with you. Working together to come up with a good plan is a Good Thing. Taking control of the rescue, when it involves the crew under the command of the rescuing boat's captain, is another thing entirely.

I am not suggesting 'taking control'. I am only suggesting taking part in devising the action plan.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. I read:
"And, you should also remember that money talks. Especially with people who frequently take home minimum wage. An extra $1000 ea., might inspire a couple of guys to jump into their lifeboat."

...to mean that you were offering it to the crew in order to sway their judgement. Captains are pretty often taking home somewhat more than minimum wage and hence are unlikely to be swayed by the offers of $1K to crew members so they risk their lives.

Not meant as an intention to 'sway any judgment' Only meant as an additional resource for the Captain to use at his discretion when / if asking for any volunteers.

The crew is already his resource to use. If he determines their capabilities are not up to the task, they're not up to the task. An extra $1K isn't going to make them more skilled, just more likely to risk their lives. As a captain, offering inducement to place added risk on their lives (when the captain's responsibility is not to do so) is, in my opinion, a Bad Thing.

They are not in the military. These are private citizens who are working a JOB. Therefore, money does talk. Don't ever doubt that.

A plan is either good or bad on it's own merits. If you need to be bribing the crew (through the captain or otherwise), you are essentially admitting there are risks to the lives of the crew in the plan but you want them to try anyway, right?
The 'reward' is meant as an inducement to go above the call of duty, i.e., beyond what they signed up for. This is not necessarily an offset to 'risk' as much as it is to extra WORK.
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  #186  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

You get what you pay for / money talks. Two heads are better than one. A closed mind is a dangerous thing. More (information) is better than less.

These are sayings which have stood the test of time and are to some degree the basis of some of my advisements.

Working together with your rescuer to devise a mutually agreeable transfer plan is a good idea.

Sitting on your duff and leaving it all up to them, is not a good idea.

Doug & Evelyn Sabbag & the S/V Triumph can attest to that REALITY.

Stop fighting experience - stop fighting for the sake of fighting. It is pointless and tiring to do so.
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  #187  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
I am not suggesting 'taking control'. I am only suggesting taking part in devising the action plan.
And, as I stated, no-one is against that. So long as, once the plan is being executed, the control rests with the captain of the rescue boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
Not meant as an intention to 'sway any judgment' Only meant as an additional resource for the Captain to use at his discretion when / if asking for any volunteers.
And, as I already stated, the crew are already his resource to use. The captain should be making plans based on the capabilities of the crew, not on how much extra risk they're willing to take on because they can be bribed to risk their lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
They are not in the military. These are private citizens who are working a JOB. Therefore, money does talk. Don't ever doubt that.
I don't doubt that. However, as my understanding goes, the captain is responsible for their safety, not their wallets. No matter how much money you put on the table, the captain's responsibility should be to weigh the risks to the crew's life against their capability. These risks do not change based on how much money you offer - people are just willing to ignore more risk for higher payment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
The 'reward' is meant as an inducement to go above the call of duty, i.e., beyond what they signed up for. This is not necessarily an offset to 'risk' as much as it is to extra WORK.
OK, with that in mind, I have to ask again for clarification as to whether "the issue was not one of effort & concern on their part, but of their knowledge in how best to retrieve you?"

If it was not an issue of effort & concern - money doesn't change anything. By bringing up that things might have been different if you chose to offer the crew money, you imply their efforts were less than what they could do safely.
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  #188  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BentSailor View Post
And, as I stated, no-one is against that. So long as, once the plan is being executed, the control rests with the captain of the rescue boat.


And, as I already stated, the crew are already his resource to use. The captain should be making plans based on the capabilities of the crew, not on how much extra risk they're willing to take on because they can be bribed to risk their lives.


I don't doubt that. However, as my understanding goes, the captain is responsible for their safety, not their wallets. No matter how much money you put on the table, the captain's responsibility should be to weigh the risks to the crew's life against their capability. These risks do not change based on how much money you offer - people are just willing to ignore more risk for higher payment.



OK, with that in mind, I have to ask again for clarification as to whether "the issue was not one of effort & concern on their part, but of their knowledge in how best to retrieve you?"

If it was not an issue of effort & concern - money doesn't change anything. By bringing up that things might have been different if you chose to offer the crew money, you imply their efforts were less than what they could do safely.


Look buddy, I get it that YOU wouldn't consider offering any money to anyone to save your ass. Wonderful. Don't do it.

I would offer money to someone who is WORKING for money, to do that which they are not being paid to do. And if that inspires the sailor to get off his ass and make an extra effort, I am glad.

But, you can just keep treading water.
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  #189  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

If you still need 'clarification' on how life works, ask your father.
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  #190  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Unless anyone has any intelligent questions to ask, I am sure I have provided what is useful to those who CAN think on their feet, and I am done here.

Those who choose to wallow in 'clarifications' and minutia, can do so until the cows fly, without me.

Fair winds.
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