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  #291  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
Hey Doug, how about some feedback. If the KJ could have gotten that line within your reach, do you feel you would have been physically capable of making use of it at that point? Any problems you could foresee?
ABSOLUTELY! That would have been fantastic.
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  #292  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. The conditions of each rescue will be different. Each captain will have his own ideas as to how to accomplish the task. Each ship will be unique in its handling capabilities and equipment. How it will be done will also depend on what the ship has on board to work with. They may not have a inflatable with line long enough to keep it tied to the ship as they try to circle the boat or man in the water. If they do, then the captain might chose to use it somehow.

2. While it is good if the operation can be coordinated between those to be rescued and the rescuers, those being rescued, in my opinion, gave up any right to specify how it will be done once they put out the rescue call. The planes in the air, the helicopters, and rescuing vessels will and should execute the rescue as they see fit. Those being rescued should be extremely thankful that there are people who are in a position to attempt the rescue at some considerable expense, inconvenience, and risk to those who are to do the rescue.

3. Maybe some of those who have served as masters of large vessels can chime in, but as I recall, with some limited experience in rescue drills on a Navy frigate (540 ft. long, twin screw), maneuvering alongside and stopping at the man or boat in the water is not that easy and will not be quick. As I recall, we had to maintain 5 knots or greater to maintain steerage way, and stopping distance at such a speed, for our relatively maneuverable ship was on the order of 1/4 mile, and turning radius was about twice that, but you also have to be far enough away from the person or boat in the water so that you can adjust your approach for wind/current (where you want it relative to your ship and the man in the water) and so you can make a straight enough approach to put the ship in close position on the desired side to the man or boat in the water. Things happen on a delayed basis, not instantaneous. It involves a lot of experience and judgment to get it right the first time. Misjudge and you have to go around and try again. The KJ was much larger than our ship and not nearly as maneuverable as our ship, so the distances and time required for the maneuver will be much greater and the skill needed is higher. As to that line being drug through water at 5 or more knots (less once the ship is in process of stopping), what is the chance that you can hang on if you grab it? Relatively to the distances involved, it is not likely that the ship will have a line long enough to sweep around the boat or man in the water. And now trying to accuragely place the inflatable at the man while towing it in addition to maneuvering the ship adds a whole new level of complexity. (The approach is something for sailboats when rescuing a man in the water, but we are more maneuverable and distances are much smaller.)

4. It seems unreasonable to me for we sailors, who chose to put ourselves in danger with long at sea passages (done really just because it's something we want to do, not because we have to do it), to expect shipping companies to expend significant amounts of money for specialized gear and training necessary to pick up sailboat crews. There are many ships in service and most will never encounter such a rescue need. Maybe a fair way to do it, would be to require permits for sailboats making bluewater passages which would include fees to raise funds to pay for the specialized rescue equipment and training on all merchant vessels that are at sea so the costs are paid by those who are likely to benefit from them. Of course, I don't expect many to agree with this and the cost would be extremely high. But how is it our right to expect the ships to spend money for our benefit just in case that we or one of our fellow sailors might need it some day?

Last edited by NCC320; 02-16-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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  #293  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by DougSabbag View Post
Bentsailor.... OK, assuming everyone is properly grateful and appreciative of the rescuer, and after all those rationalizations and explanations for not coming up with any valid ideas of how to get the sailor out of the water - but not supporting using a LIFEBOAT, what IS your idea to address that issue?
I don't have a good one. I already stated explicitly "I don't know what the best practical method is for retrieving someone in circumstances like this".

I do like Dean's suggestions and I'm willing to hear from others too, including the merchant captains smackdaddy reached out to. I'm also willing to chime in when I see a problem, which I have done. Part of working out a best plan of attack is to note the flaws in proposed plans and I've only done that when I've felt very strongly the flaw should be mentioned (i.e. cash offers).

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I think this is going in a socially friendly way.... I am not being negative or jumpy.... so please don't erroneously think I am being ugly. I'm just sitting here talking to you, over a beer, or a Jack Daniels.
I'm not trying to be ugly here either (though the mirror might argue with my level of success ).

I initially entered the discussion to try an alleviate what appeared to be simply a miscommunication between yourself and others. I realise now that was not the case* and only got narky after being attacked for things I didn't say. I'm sorry for said narkiness - strawmen are a pet peeve of mine and I overreact to attacks (flaws I'm sure EVERYONE who knows me will attest to ).

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* i.e. your choice of words regarding gratitude/appreciation were deliberately chosen to reflect what you feel.
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Last edited by BentSailor; 02-16-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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  #294  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Just a couple of thoughts:
4. It seems unreasonable to me for we sailors, who chose to put ourselves in danger with long at sea passages (done really just because it's something we want to do, not because we have to do it), to expect shipping companies to expend significant amounts of money for specialized gear and training necessary to pick up sailboat crews. There are many ships in service and most will never encounter such a rescue need. Maybe a fair way to do it, would be to require permits for sailboats making bluewater passages which would include fees to raise funds to pay for the specialized rescue equipment and training on all merchant vessels that are at sea so the costs are paid by those who are likely to benefit from them. Of course, I don't expect many to agree with this and the cost would be extremely high. But how is it our right to expect the ships to spend money for our benefit just in case that we or one of our fellow sailors might need it some day?
In fact the shipping companies have a legal right and precedent to charge their expenses to the rescued. I know of one case where a supertanker diverted from her course and stood by a disabled small freighter until the tug arrived. Their costs were in the millions and the rescued ship (and cargo) were barely 700k. Needless to say the small ship owner had not the money to pay, not even by selling the ship and cargo, to come close. The ship became the property of the supertanker company and was rusting at anchor, unwanted, last I saw it.
"Maybe a fair way to do it, would be to require permits for sailboats making bluewater passages".
OK, then, let's just end the cruising industry in one fell swoop and return to the days of only rich yacht owners.
The only FAIR way to deal with this situation, is to charge those rescued, for the time and expenses of the rescue. I've never requested rescue in uncounted sea miles and well over 50 years, and I certainly am not going to pay for a permit to go offshore.
As I told the guy at Bermuda Radio upon entering St. Georges, when he berated me for not having the safety equipment aboard he thought I should have, so that they could know my last known position, if I went missing; "Thanks anyway, but if I decide to go to sea for pleasure, then I'll never ask another person to risk their life to save mine."
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  #295  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
In fact the shipping companies have a legal right and precedent to charge their expenses to the rescued. I know of one case where a supertanker diverted from her course and stood by a disabled small freighter until the tug arrived. Their costs were in the millions and the rescued ship (and cargo) were barely 700k. Needless to say the small ship owner had not the money to pay, not even by selling the ship and cargo, to come close. The ship became the property of the supertanker company and was rusting at anchor, unwanted, last I saw it.
"Maybe a fair way to do it, would be to require permits for sailboats making bluewater passages".
OK, then, let's just end the cruising industry in one fell swoop and return to the days of only rich yacht owners.
The only FAIR way to deal with this situation, is to charge those rescued, for the time and expenses of the rescue. I've never requested rescue in uncounted sea miles and well over 50 years, and I certainly am not going to pay for a permit to go offshore.
As I told the guy at Bermuda Radio upon entering St. Georges, when he berated me for not having the safety equipment aboard he thought I should have, so that they could know my last known position, if I went missing; "Thanks anyway, but if I decide to go to sea for pleasure, then I'll never ask another person to risk their life to save mine."
The suggestion of fees and permits were made to point out that the costs should be carried by the people who benefit from the actions. If we want to require the shipping companies to spend money just in case for our benefit, we should be prepared to pay for it. And as you say, such fees would kill cruising industry. So maybe the best way is for us to just be thankful that there are ships out there that can and will come to our aid. Let them (the rescuers) do it as they see best with what they have. And don't require or expect the ships to spend money on our behalf just in case. I doubt that the owner of the sailboat in the case under discussion had the money to pay the costs and delays involved in his rescue, and in his case, his boat was left adrift, as a hazard to navigation, and likely not recovered, so it could not be part of a settlement.
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  #296  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Just a couple of thoughts:

1. The conditions of each rescue will be different. Each captain will have his own ideas as to how to accomplish the task. Each ship will be unique in its handling capabilities and equipment. How it will be done will also depend on what the ship has on board to work with. They may not have a inflatable with line long enough to keep it tied to the ship as they try to circle the boat or man in the water. If they do, then the captain might chose to use it somehow.

2. While it is good if the operation can be coordinated between those to be rescued and the rescuers, those being rescued, in my opinion, gave up any right to specify how it will be done once they put out the rescue call. The planes in the air, the helicopters, and rescuing vessels will and should execute the rescue as they see fit. Those being rescued should be extremely thankful that there are people who are in a position to attempt the rescue at some considerable expense, inconvenience, and risk to those who are to do the rescue.

3. Maybe some of those who have served as masters of large vessels can chime in, but as I recall, with some limited experience in rescue drills on a Navy frigate (540 ft. long, twin screw), maneuvering alongside and stopping at the man or boat in the water is not that easy and will not be quick. As I recall, we had to maintain 5 knots or greater to maintain steerage way, and stopping distance at such a speed, for our relatively maneuverable ship was on the order of 1/4 mile, and turning radius was about twice that, but you also have to be far enough away from the person or boat in the water so that you can adjust your approach for wind/current (where you want it relative to your ship and the man in the water) and so you can make a straight enough approach to put the ship in close position on the desired side to the man or boat in the water. Things happen on a delayed basis, not instantaneous. It involves a lot of experience and judgment to get it right the first time. Misjudge and you have to go around and try again. The KJ was much larger than our ship and not nearly as maneuverable as our ship, so the distances and time required for the maneuver will be much greater and the skill needed is higher. As to that line being drug through water at 5 or more knots (less once the ship is in process of stopping), what is the chance that you can hang on if you grab it? Relatively to the distances involved, it is not likely that the ship will have a line long enough to sweep around the boat or man in the water. And now trying to accuragely place the inflatable at the man while towing it in addition to maneuvering the ship adds a whole new level of complexity. (The approach is something for sailboats when rescuing a man in the water, but we are more maneuverable and distances are much smaller.)

4. It seems unreasonable to me for we sailors, who chose to put ourselves in danger with long at sea passages (done really just because it's something we want to do, not because we have to do it), to expect shipping companies to expend significant amounts of money for specialized gear and training necessary to pick up sailboat crews. There are many ships in service and most will never encounter such a rescue need. Maybe a fair way to do it, would be to require permits for sailboats making bluewater passages which would include fees to raise funds to pay for the specialized rescue equipment and training on all merchant vessels that are at sea so the costs are paid by those who are likely to benefit from them. Of course, I don't expect many to agree with this and the cost would be extremely high. But how is it our right to expect the ships to spend money for our benefit just in case that we or one of our fellow sailors might need it some day?
I totally agree NCC. Even professional rescuers wont/cant determine the best methods and techniques to be used until they evaluate the situation. I was simply rising to Doug's challenge to offer alternatives. Judging from your experience with larger ships, it sounds like maneuverability limitations alone would make my suggestions unusable for most, if not all large ships. It's entirely possible that they are not really viable at all. A ship capable of maneuvering tightly enough to employ them would have been able to easily maneuver closer to Doug and get a line to him. Of course, the first suggestion of boarding a liferaft from the sailboat might still be viable in certain situations when bringing the two vessels close together would be much more dangerous. But then, that's why the Coast Guard have all kinds of tricks up their sleeves.

It would be interesting to get the thoughts of some big ship captains on this subject. Get an idea of their general capabilities and limitations, that sort of thing. What could we, as recreational boaters, do to make that type of situation easier to deal with from their perspective?

I really don't think it would be feasible to train and equip every commercial vessel in search and rescue. I could see a manual of general methods tailored for untrained merchant captains. A book of general ideas that could be easily modified to fit the situation depending on conditions and ship capabilities. I think anything more than that would be cost prohibitive and could possibly detour companies from voluntary programs like AMVERS. Training means time/money which leads to refresher training and more time/money. And that's not counting the investment in equipment which must then be maintained/inspected/replaced. I can't see a commercial venture wanting to commit to that kind of investment.
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  #297  
Old 02-16-2014
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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........ such fees would kill cruising industry..........
Cross oceanic cruisers should have zero expectation that anyone will come to their rescue. If it cost money to get someone to come, that's a bonus.
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  #298  
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

One of the objectives of AMVER is save money.

If everyone who was aware of a Mayday had to divert (that is the law) , it would be very expensive.

AMVER determines who is in the best position and sends them, freeing up the others to continue their voyage.
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Cross oceanic cruisers should have zero expectation that anyone will come to their rescue. If it cost money to get someone to come, that's a bonus.
Maritime law requires "rendering assistance"
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Re: Rescued at Sea - Are You Prepared?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
One of the objectives of AMVER is save money.

If everyone who was aware of a Mayday had to divert (that is the law) , it would be very expensive.

AMVER determines who is in the best position and sends them, freeing up the others to continue their voyage.
Excellent point.
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