Lost at sea - SailNet Community
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post #1 of 64 Old 11-26-2011 Thread Starter
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Lost at sea

So, the story is like this:

A 72 year old Dutch decided to Join is wife that is in Uruguay sailing on his big and heavy motorsailor (13m).

Near the Brazilian shores (175nm) he decided he is lost, probably a non function GPS, its boat is in perfect conditions but he decided to call is wife to say he is lost. The wife in panic calls the Dutch embassy that calls the Brasilian Navy.








A search and rescue is deployed and they found the guy. The rest is not clear but it seems that they had said to the guy where he was and he followed his route.

http://arabnews.com/world/article538...?service=print

FAB - BUSCA E RESGATE- Nova aeronave da FAB encontra veleiro holandÍs

Do You find this normal? Who is going to pay the big costs of a search and rescue mission? Probably the Brazilian people.

About a month before I was almost tempted to post about a rescue of all the crew of a sailboat that the only problem seamed to be a non function engine and a scared crew. By the photos the sea did not seem particularly bad and the boat was not in risk of sinking.





Incidents like these are each year more frequent as more and more people decide to go offshore, many times in boats that are in bad condition or without enough knowledge and experience. If something goes wrong they call for help, even if their live is not at risk.

https://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/830/1046187/

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/201...lboat-rescued/

This is going to turn bad for all of us that are responsible and we are going all to pay for this situation, in insurance prices and who knows if not in rescue costs, if needed. Sooner or later they are going to put the insurance companies paying rescues and then we would have forbidden insurance prices and mandatory insurance.

Do you think I am wrong?
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Last edited by PCP; 11-26-2011 at 12:12 PM.
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post #2 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.


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post #3 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This is going to turn bad for all of us that are responsible and we are going all to pay for this situation, in insurance prices and who knows if not in rescue costs, if needed. Sooner or later they are going to put the insurance companies paying rescues and then we would have forbidden insurance prices and mandatory insurance.

Do you think I am wrong?
Try explaining this to all the people on this forum who respond to new boaters who want to sail around the world that all they need is a boat and just GO with no training on how to respond in an emergency or even how to know if they are in an emergency situation to begin with.

Donna


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post #4 of 64 Old 11-26-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vega1860 View Post
Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.
Yes, unless there is another way to prevent unfit sailors and not seaworthy or badly prepared boats to go out on the deep blue, just to cry for help if something goes wrong or the sea gets nasty.

Each rescue costs more than the value of many boats and the ones that are paying it are not the ones that sail them, but everybody.

Take a look at the big boat with the engine out. They are offshore and they sail with a dingy on the deck? What kind of sailors are they? An they have lost the life-raft overboard? In a such a big boat they can't have the liferaft properly stored?

On the first movie we can see that they are sailing....but on a storm with a furled big genoa? Were is the storm sail? Even if they had one, type of storm bag, how could they deploy it safely over a dinghy that was not even properly secured?

All this crazy stuff that shows that those guys had a lot to learn before had the right to be there. Or do you mean, do you think it is fair for you to pay, now in tax, later through those mandatory insurances, for every dude, prepared or not, to have the right to put himself and the others at risk?

Regards

Paulo
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post #5 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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It is neigh on to impossible to be lost at sea while your vessel is operable. Sailing East or West you will eventually come to land. Going North or South you will eventually come to much colder land.
But if you go into panic mode, then your confusion factor increases expotentually and you will think that you are lost. Gesh! Look at any atlas or Globe and you will start to understand what I'm trying to say.

And adding to the above; Once you are in sight of land you only need to Identify where you are at and do coastal piloting to the nearest port.
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Last edited by Boasun; 11-26-2011 at 03:32 PM.
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post #6 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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The guys calling for rescue are obviously a real bunch of clowns that had no business being offshore. I can not believe from the footage that that boat could not sail to safe port. Even if they were shipping water there were 5 aboard to man the pumps. I hope the owner skippper is not covered insurance wise. He has no business collecting on a boat he abandoned in that condition and that we will all have to pay for by higher insurance rates and taxes due to expenditures by the Coast Guard.

I myself was once rescued between Bermuda and Nantucket but in my case the boat sank from under us in the middle of the night and we did not deploy the EPIRB until we were in the raft and out of all other options.
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post #7 of 64 Old 11-26-2011 Thread Starter
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Regarding the moment to call for help I remember that once Cammas, the one that is now skipping the French boat on the VOR, capsized his big trimaran on a transat solo race on a storm with winds that picked 70K at the middle of the Atlantic.

The French rescue services received a call at 9 AM from him telling them that he had capsized. They asked if all was alright and he says yes, the boat is upside down, but no problem with the flotation. They asked when it has happened and Cammas said at 3 AM in the morning. The Rescue guys asked him to repeat again and he repeats 3 AM. The rescue guys could not believe and ask him why he was calling only now. Cammas said that he was in no danger and that he did not wanted to spoil their rest for nothing.

This story, from a relative young sailor that is already a legend, shows what is respect for the others, absence of panic and seamanship, even on a capsized boat.

Regards

Paulo
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post #8 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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If you go hiking and call for help. when they decide you were not properly prepared they make you the bill
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post #9 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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It is not an easy problem to solve

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Originally Posted by vega1860 View Post
Never fear. The Government will take care of everything. Mandatory licensing and insurance, higher taxes and onerous regulations will put cruising out of reach for all but the most wealthy. Problem solved.
I agree with you that government legistlation is the way to go. I have my official Canadian boat operator's card and it means nothing except that I passed a multiple-choice test. On the other hand, I don't think it makes any sense to have the government decide who is capable and who it not - how are they to know the expertise level, common sense, and toughness of those going offshore?

There was a lot of fuss about Laura Dekker, the Dutch teenager who wanted to sail around the world. The Dutch government even took her into care for a year (out of the parent's control). We crossed paths with her this year and she very centered and a very capable and was doing just fine. What would saying he had to be 18 or 21 do? You would miss the well-qualified 17 year olds and allow any fool who is 22 (or 55) to jump right in.

Ultimately you have to rely on the responsibility of the individual - not something that people are used to in our society, but the sea has been setting the rules a lot longer than current attitudes about no peanut butter at school have existed. I know if you want to head off towards the North Pole or do similar treks in the far north you have to put up a bond to pay for SAR - I guess this is a form of insurance not for the individual but for the society. Not sure how it would work for sailors (or even if I believe in it), but at least it would mean that everyone is not responsible for the bad decisions (or even just bad luck) of the individual. I know when I head offshore I don't want to give up my EPIRB and be totally self-reliant, but I am not putting other demands on government/society like for roads, schools, health care, although I still pay taxes toward those things.

It is a really complex question, but I think it has to start (but probably not end) with the individual taking responsibilty for their decisions and, I agree, we should be saying to people that they should just buy a boat and go - unless we also tell them to not take an EPIRB, sat phone, or anything similar that would call for help.

Back home on Lake Ontario after something over 36,000 nm circumnavigator. Not surprisingly there is a lot of stuff I want to get done on Ainia both cosmetically and functionally. Getting an early start so it will be ready to go for next summer (Lake Superior?).
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post #10 of 64 Old 11-26-2011
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Man, it's a slippery slope though when we/they/someone tries to define worthy versus unworthy SAR calls for reimbursement purposes afterward. Is abandoning/getting rescued from a seaworthy hull and rig (my old man used to say, "kid, the boat's tougher than you are") enough? Torn sails (how many)? What if what's shredded is the storm jib and trysail? Dismasted hull? Parted stay? Steering failure? Fuel spilled in the interior? Seasickness to the point of dehydration and mega-fatigue?

Look, I agree the motorsailer ketch looks fine, and not having a nav fix doesn't mean "lost at sea" to me, what a joke. But the Coast Guard is going to continue to answer these calls, it's what they do. Should they decide if they want their money back? Or some other agency? Or leave it to the hull insurers? Or you have to pay for injury or (God forbid) death or loss of boat or aircraft by the rescuers?

Easier to mock than to come up with a system that makes sense. And then we have more regulation, bureaucracy, and less individual freedom (though yes, the latter is often abused.

I just don't think this is as simple as it seems to us typing at dry desks.

Last edited by nolatom; 11-26-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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