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Firearms

18K views 126 replies 28 participants last post by  JoeDiver 
#1 ·
Ok, I`m going to stir up an age old discussion as to weather or not one should carry arms or not on their boat.
I`ve served 14 years in the military and so I expect to have a little different view on survival with Human animal attacks. Anyone who shows up at your boat with a gun will shoot and kill you. At least this is what you should asume. Most theives carry guns for intemedation. However,they will also kill you depending on cercomstances involved;ie Is the leader of the bunch is ruthless or maybe they realize that after taking your belongings they can`t leave anything or one behind. An old pirate saying "Dead Men Tell No Tales" is something to think about. My Father told me to never pull a gun on someone unless you intend to use it. So therefore, I can only asume the same when they come a calling. If any of you out there decide to carry arms aboard, then seek some proffesional training on guns and self defence tactics. At least you`ll have a better understanding on what to do if ever placed in that position. I would like to hear more on this so please write in.
Thanks, Chuck
 
#2 ·
You''re right, this is an old chestnut.

I used to believe the way you seem to. But some recent events, such as Peter Blake''s unfortunate demise, and discussions with some folks in the Caribbean who''d had first-hand experience with pirates in South America, made me change my mind. Odds are, they will be packing more heat than you will be, by far, and will have less to lose if they pull the trigger. They usually don''t give you much warning either--it''s often at night, at anchor, while you''re asleep.

Not that piracy is common--it isn''t.

Some might say (and I used to be of this mind) that having the gun hidden on the boat somewhere is good insurance. Just having it doesn''t mean you''ll use it, right? But it''s there if the "right" bad situation develops.

But a killer (no pun intended) problem for the full-time cruiser is, what are you going to do with it when you come into port? Clearing customs is getting harder and harder all the time. I don''t know the custom laws for firearms around the world, but I do know you''d better not have one on board in the BVI or Mexico if the customs or guara folks decide to search your vessel. Especially a hidden one.

Stay alert, anchor near others, talk to locals about your proposed route, don''t draw attention to yourself in port...

Just my .02, of course.

bw
 
#3 ·
I have a handgun and I have been around them all my life, but I don''t ever have any gun on my boat. The penalty for having a gun (handgun) found on your boat far outweighs any reason for having it. Not only are they illegal to have in Mexico and Canada, but some states prohibit you from having them even if you are passing through. I am thinking of New York but there could be others.
Most attacks or robberies I have heard of take place at night or in isolated places as has been posted. Most injuries happen when a robbery is interrupted or resistance is offered. I have to believe that my life is worth more than stopping some thief from making off with $200 in cash and my stereo. If you must have some sort of weapon, the most effective thing is a can of Mace and a good solid wood baton. In my area the most dangerous thing is the US Navy in their high speed inflateables with .50 cal machine guns mounted front and back in case my sailboat suddenly sprouts Weapons of Mass Distraction.

The thing that draws the burglars to you is the huge wad of cash some people flash when shopping and the shiney new outboard hung on your dinghy.
I also endorse weapons training if you own one (or more). My parents sent me to some safety classes before they let me take marksmanship classes or shoot on ranges.
Ken
 
#4 ·
I concur with Bob & Ken. I''ve always had a handgun in my home for protection and have carried one in my motorhome for the same reason.

However, a handgun on a boat is too much of a liability. As pointed out earlier, if it comes to a "shootout" with whomever, chances are you will be outgunned. So you and your family will probably come out on the short end of such an encounter. also as pointed out, most banana republics are very strict on gun possesion. Even if you declare your weapons onboard, chances are that some official could hold you out for "mordida" by "discovering" the weapons you have declared.

A couple of years ago, a father and son, on a formidable yacht, enroute from
Florida to California, ended up in a Mexican jail after declaring two semi-automatic rifles carried on their boat. They were the victims of local officials over-extending their authority. But it took pressure from the U.S. government to get the elderly father released from jail. The son was incarcerated for several months before his trial finally came up and he was ultimately released.

It seems the liability of carrying a gun far outweighs the security it might provide. Alternate means of protection are probably a better choice. A large sheath knife, a cargo hook, mace, maybe a speargun. All would serve as a deterent in the close quarters of a cabin.

Jim
 
#5 ·
I have thought long and hard about this subject, too, and decided against carrying a firearm aboard. All the points made by the previous posters seem valid to me.

While I explored this subject, I kept picturing that one situation where (moments before I was killed), I regretted not having a gun. But after thinking about how many ways having the gun aboard is a real problem, and the fact that having one does not at all guarantee your safety, I decided against it.

It does seem to me that the majority of negatives stem from the authorities imposing rules. And the ones who are (negatively) affected by the rules are the rule-abiding people of this world. The would-be criminals don''t follow the rules, and thus always have the advantage in cases like this. That''s been the story for quite a while, now, I''m afraid.

Regards,
Duane
 
#8 ·
Your correct in keeping a low profile and about handguns. However a short barreled shot gun works best with safty slugs. They do a number on the intruder but not as much on your boat. I`ve also seen guys in my unit squirt pepper spray in there mouths so I don`t hold alot faith in that. Although pepper spray made for Grizzly Bears is whats in order. Now! Here is the part that really Pisses me off. You say your not Willing to take a chance on getting kill for two hundred dollars and a stereo. Are you willing to asume that`s all they want? Sons and daughters are out there deffending your way of life and your not willing to defend yourself? What a waste! I can`t believe what I`m reading here. Here`s the worst part. I`ll hear your May-Day and come to your aid. Get some Back Bone Friend!
 
#11 ·
It seems to me that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and a firearm, if cruising outside the US, specificly where they are illegal, (EG Mexico, etc) is a ton of cure, and it may just be the source of more problems than it fixes.

James Baldwin has a decent article on dealing with Piracy, on sailnet as a matter of fact:

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=baldwi0011

Basicly, a gun may help get you away from pirates, but it''s not guaranteed. there is a chance you could make it through mexican waters without a gun, but a greater one that you''ll be spending a few months or more in a mexican prison. Myself, I''ll take my chance with out the gun, and just make sure pirates know that I''m not an easy target, and they should just move on to someone else, or at least leave me alone. Dont need a gun to do that.

Basicly, what seperates my home from my boat, is that my home wont be floating through areas where guns are strictly illegal, and the local LEO belive that the only reason someone would have a gun is to Shoot THEM with it. That makes for a less than hospitibal welcome. :(

-- James (Not Baldwin ;) )
 
#12 ·
Thanks Duane, Your right it dosen`t seem right about criminals carring guns but that`s the fact of it. How ever if you say that "just before you were to be killed that if you had a gun that it still would`nt have mattered? Of course it would. At least you would have had a chance. It`s the willingness to survive that makes the difference. You have to be as mean as they are.
 
#13 ·
IslandChief60,

I''m not sure if you are addressing your comments to all of us who replied to your post, but it doesn''t really matter. I take exception to your comment, "... and you are not willing to defend yourself?"

It doesn''t seem to me to be just a simple question of: "Should I take a firearm and have the possibility of defending myself, OR, should I just forget it and hope for the best." I work with weapons all the time (I have designed experimental high rate-of-fire cannons for the US Navy and Army, BTW), so I have a healthy respect for the safety and responsibility aspects of firearms.

From all the cruising info I have read: if you take the gun(s) cruising, you will face the very real possibility every day that you will be boarded by authorities and that for one reason or another, you will wind up in jail for a long time, your boat will be confiscated, or something else very unpleasant. As I said in my last post, the rules favor the criminals.

In the US, citizens using deadly force often say, "better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6." [In case anyone doesn''t get that, it means it''s better to use your gun illegally if necessary and face a jury rather than being carried away in a coffin.]

Decide for yourself what you think the risks are on both sides and act accordingly.

Since I think you mentioned you are in the US military, allow me to thank you for your service to our country.

Regards,
Duane
 
#14 ·
It seem that there really isn`t a clear way to deal with piracy. It all falls on the shoulders of the victims and how they decide to deal with the event.I`m not sure that carring a shot gun on board is the right answer or not but it will be part of my defense program along with other preventive measures. Thanks guys for your opinion.
 
#16 ·
Thank you Duane for your contribution as well. I was a forward controller in the USAF before I cross trained and went into the Reserves. Ive spent a lot of time in the Banana Belt. Some of the officals are the very same ones who will inspect your boat one day and rob it the next. Or they supply the crinals with info for exchange of the cut. I liked your saying. Sadly it`s very true. I would really like to hear about some of your other Ideas on defending your boat of would be theives.
Thanks, Chuck
 
#17 ·
From what I''ve read, most international cruisers don''t recommend carrying a firearm onboard. Besides the very real possibility of being thrown in jail by not-so-nice local police, there is also the likelihood that by brandishing your weapon, you may encite an escalated response from perpetrator(s).

Also, if the weapon accidently discharges it could cause bodily harm to you or your crew, not to mention the fact that it may put a hole in the hull which will need immediate repair if it''s below the waterline. :^(

I think the movie "Bowling for Columbine" may provide further insite.

BTW, there are other legal ways of providing self protection while onboard. Some have already mentioned, knives and spearguns, but we should all carry a flare-gun too. Remeber the movie "Dead Calm"? Now that was scary!

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
#18 ·
I must say this is a thoughtful discussion...quite unlike many threads on this subject.

I will throw in my $0.02. I am a former naval officer and small arms qualified. I have never owned any firearm of any sort and do not intend to.

I believe first and foremost in prevention...not looking like a target and not showing money or possessions. And avoiding areas where there might be trouble. Having been to some of the worst places on earth for violence...I have no interest in seeing them again.

I also believe in the numbers. Pirate attacks are rare, especially fatal ones. I am much more concerned with the sea and weather. I need to focus on making my boat a safe vessal for passagemaking and will not devote much if any time to pirates.

The issue of having a firearm aboard and dealing with the myriad of local authorities and their whim of the day is most significant. You are simply offering them probable cause to throw you in jail. And in third world countries, you do not have the rights we enjoy here. You could be there a long time, lose your boat etc.

Finally, being in a firefight would be your worst nightmare. If you are attacked by pirates, they get to chose the time and place, they have thought out their strategy and tactics in advance, they have experience in doing this and there will be more of them than you and they will have more firepower.

You can fight off prowlers and petty thieves without firearms.

You will not be able to fight off pirates with any firearm you could bring aboard.

One sad article I read on piracy was a story of a couple cruising. They were approached by a boat they thought to be pirates. The boat came along side and they were talking to the husband. While this was happening, his wife went to the forward hatch and came out with a gun. They shot her dead in an instant and simply left.

Respectfully,
 
#19 ·
about Peter Blake, I think the big issue his case brought up is the one we''re discussing here... namely that as the pirates boarded him, he ducked below to grab his gun and was shot to death. I think that the pirates ended up just stealing his watch.

A couple of additional thoughts... if there wasn''t a problem with legality, a rifle could be a good deterent. If someone is looking for an easy score, they''re less likely to go after someone that they know is armed. I''m thinking about Joshua Slocum discouraging Feugoen Indians from attacking him by brandishing his trusty rifle.

The Grisly Bear Pepper Spay is pretty impressive to watch... I think I saw it used on TV once...

I think it would be great to have some tear gas grenades on hand. Toss a couple up on deck or into the cockpit if someone boards you. Anyone know about the legality of something like this?
 
#20 ·
How about setting up a fire extinguisher system in your cockpit only its filled with Hi-strength pepper spray. Or motion sensors that turn on your flood lights. Mini cams are great for seeing whats going on outside while your locked inside your boat. Alarms that set off a loud air horn or sierin. If all of that fails, then break out the Big Whiskey. Then they deserve to have their asses blown off.
 
#21 ·
Regarding bowling for columbine, please read this: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Back on topic:

I am a big fan of shooting, both for food, sport, and self protection. I chose not to keep firearms on my boat. Whatever you do, to rptect yourself, do it responsibly.

-- James
 
#22 ·
When I was younger my brother and I hunted and shot rifles and handguns competitively. Even then I dreamt of sailing around the world and when I bought my Mini-14 (Ruger) it was stainless.

There has also been a movie based on a real life incident starring Richard Crenna, I think, in which a cruising couple disappears and the woman''s skeleton is found by a skin diver sometime later in a crate at the bottom of a south pacific bay.

In the movie, supposedly recounted by the girlfriend of the man who killed the couple, the husband had a nice array of firearms hidden within a bulkhead of his boat. Ultimately, the handgun he pulled out for safety was no defense as a few days later he was killed in his sleep by someone who crept aboard his boat.

Recently, a book came out on piracy. It''s on my "to read" list. But according to reviews and the dust jacket, the author got the idea to write the book when he was boarded and robbed at sea while single-handing near Singapore, I think. As a result, he researched modern piracy and wrote his book, coming out against the use of firearms as a deterent to piracy on practical grounds.

And, though there are times when a semi-automatic rifle may do the trick against opportunistic thieves, I have heard that some modern pirates, such as those off Venezuela or in the Malaysian straights, have access to cannons which they mount on their bows. To defend against this would call for a long-range firefight with the longer range weapons winning out. (Perhaps LAWs or Recoilless rifles.)

Nonetheless, sneakier (such as automatic pepper spray nozzles mounted in the cockpit and on the beams) seems, overall, more prudent. But who would actually go through the trouble to do this?

On the other hand, a 44 carbine (again Ruger) is a great way to dispatch a hooked shark thrashing about at your transom.

Chas
 
#23 ·
Even in places where a firearm would be illegal, a flare gun is accepted. Now, if someone were to board my vessel with malicious intent, I’d think that a face full of burning goo would change his mind. I understand that a flares shot can not be extinguished and needs to burn out on their own. So even if an assailant were to jump in the water, he’d still be burning. Accuracy? How accurate do I need to be in a small boat? If you want a little more kick, someone makes a shell that fits the Olin flare guns just for the purpose. Other then that, as a true pirate, I have other, very effictive means to repel boarders and one would do well to not test my resolve by putting my life or the lives of my crew in jeopardy.
 
#24 ·
I fail to understand why I lack backbone for not wanting to stop some heavily armed people from taking my stereo when I have insurance that will replace it with a newer better one. Its not worth my life to stop them. It is my understanding that in most parts of the world, the friendly natives (the entire reason for travelling in the first place)come up to your boat often bumping it wanting to sell you fresh fish or just say hi, don''t look much different from the evil pirates so going Rambo on them will get you on the wrong side of the law pronto.

If I wanted to be a complete paranoid I wouldn''t be out sailing, I would be safe inside my bunker in Montana. They have excellent sailing there too.(Flathead Lake)

Ken
not Rambo
 
#25 ·
Agreed; this is probably the most civilized discussion involving firearms yet.

I gave more thought to this on my commute this morning. I face real risks (with potentially lethal consequences) quite often: my daily 2 hour high-speed commute in NJ traffic; downhill skiing (without a helmet); riding my motorcycle (even with a helmet); flying small single-engined airplanes (admittedly not since I traded my wings for sails a few years ago); telling my wife that, yes, those pants do make you look fat (grin); etc.

In each of those cases, I could die or be seriously injured if something really bad happens, but yet I do them and I don''t worry. What I do is to minimize my risk in those situations through training, awareness, good practices, judgement (well, there''s no good judgement in the wife''s pants comment), etc.

I have the same philosophy about potential thievery and outright pirate attacks. I will try to employ the preventive tactics others have mentioned. I will also give some thought to last-ditch defensive measures that don''t involve an actual firearm (for those situations where such measures might be truly helpful).

As an aside, I see one area where I will suffer a disadvantage. We will not likely have an expensive boat for our cruising, but I do believe in keeping a boat as bristol as possible. I know that my boat will seem like a more lucrative target for thievery than the derelict-looking one in the same anchorage. ;-)

Regards,
Duane
 
#26 ·
Great posts Duane and Ken. Exactly the point and hit the nail on the head. And absolutely yes, there will be many people coming to your boat when you are out there, who are friendly...being paranoid and going postal on everyone who comes near your boat will end your trip very quickly.

PirateofCapeAnn has it right. There are a lot of potential ''weapons'' on board. Your flare gun is one. A spear gun, machette, rigging knife, mace, epoxy (that IS nasty stuff), even a boat hook can be used to dispatch any of the odd bad guys.

True pirates who are heavily armed are like a Mack truck coming head on on the highway.

Respectfully

John
 
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