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  #11  
Old 01-04-2012
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The harsh reality is the bay 'appears' cleaner because the prevailing winds have switched back to 'normal' from the SW and the bay is again 'turning over' and mixing the top fresh water with the 'upcoming' salt water on the bottom. For the past 2-3 years the winds were predominately 'westerly' and which failed to keep the bay 'turned over' which allowed the bay to become quite 'stratified' and 'unmixed' .... and quite turbid/'dead' on or near the surface.
Of course government regulations had nothing to do with the predominant wind directions ... although government would like you to believe so. At least thats the story from those environmental scientists who have been actually monitoring the bay's water quality for the past many years who seem to be in total agreement ---- wind patterns have changed back to 'normal'.
As long as Baltimore City's infamous Back Creek sewage treatment plant remains a mixed system of sewage and storm water and which becomes totally overwhelmed by the smallest of rainstorms, the bay water quality will remain poor and no matter how good 'it looks'.
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2012
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Oh - so a cleaner Chesapeake bay and more jobs created to improve infrastructure really is bad news?
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfok View Post
Oh - so a cleaner Chesapeake bay and more jobs created to improve infrastructure really is bad news?
For 40 years, this has been the mantra and message of the CBF, and almost that long the EPA...the greenies from Rachel Carlson on have said the same thing....and nothing but studies, more studies, excuses, and platitudes, even a few well meaning lawsuits...but still nothing.

The reality is some grants to keep the CBF "studying" what needs to be done, and some more enforcement of pump out rules on ONLY recreational boating....

Were this story, or any of the others over the past 40 years....true....I would be jumping for joy.

What say we ask the mods to sticky this post and just see how much "solution" and JOBS are created by this "new" information - this time next year?

I will make a donation to the charity of your choice, if this time next year 230,000 jobs are created as a result.

To be fair, if you could find 10,000 jobs exclusively created by this time next year - as a result of this....I would make a donation.
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  #14  
Old 01-04-2012
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If anyone sincerely believes the bay is going to be cleaned up, they obviously still believe in the Tooth Fairy. CBF doesn't clean up anything--they never have and never will. They exist solely to perpetuate their own organization.

Taxpayer funded studies of Chesapeake Bay began in 1890, and from research I did two decades ago about these studies indicated there had been more than 2,000 studies conducted up until then. Back then taxpayers had already delved out more than $4-billion, a figure that I'm confident has more than tripled by now.

From my perspective, Chesapeake Bay, and for that matter, any major body of water in the nation, will never be cleaner than it is right now. We keep making babies, those babies convert food into feces and liquid into urine, all of which is semi-processed and dumped into our rivers, bays and oceans. Now, those babies make more babies, who make more, babies and the beat goes on.

There is great book that I would suggest that everyone read--Green Hell by Steve Millroy. The book puts things in perspective and tells it like it is--no holds barred. Millroy also takes an in-depth look at those green jobs and clearly shows who is going to pay for them, and that once created, those agencies grow exponentially.



Now, one of the posters in this thread talked about paying more fuel tax in hopes of having bridges and roads restored. In Maryland, the state legislature and governor continue to raid the Transportation Trust Fund to facilitate their bloated, bureaucratic budget. The last time I checked, Maryland had the third highest fuel taxes in he nation, and with the governor's current proposal Maryland will soon be #1.

The rant may be over, but the saga of the Chesapeake Bay Cleanup Program will continue until we either run out of taxpayer money, or regulated to the point where we can no longer afford to sail at all.

Gary
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  #15  
Old 01-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kd3pc View Post
For 40 years, this has been the mantra and message of the CBF, and almost that long the EPA...the greenies from Rachel Carlson on have said the same thing....and nothing but studies, more studies, excuses, and platitudes, even a few well meaning lawsuits...but still nothing.

The reality is some grants to keep the CBF "studying" what needs to be done, and some more enforcement of pump out rules on ONLY recreational boating....
Were this story, or any of the others over the past 40 years....true....I would be jumping for joy.

What say we ask the mods to sticky this post and just see how much "solution" and JOBS are created by this "new" information - this time next year?

I will make a donation to the charity of your choice, if this time next year 230,000 jobs are created as a result.

To be fair, if you could find 10,000 jobs exclusively created by this time next year - as a result of this....I would make a donation.
Yeah well, most of that low-hanging fruit has all been picked. Once recreactional boating has been strangled, and the Bay is still filthy, they'll have no choice but to look at the real causes.
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  #16  
Old 01-04-2012
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The last thing the obstructionists in state and federal government want right now is job creation, so I too doubt 230,000 or 10,000 jobs will be funded soon. Especially if those jobs are coupled with environmental regulation.
Corporate chemical, oil, factory farming and industrial developers pay billions for hired hands in the congress and K street to spread disinformation in hopes of getting folks ( like many here) to support efforts against their own best interest.
Lots of posts here seem to prefer filth and look forward to its return just to prove regulation doesn't work. Of course regulation does work, the bay is far cleaner now than at any time in the last 40 years. It still has a way to go.
As one of those recreational boaters I prefer a cleaner bay. Not dumping sewage, oil or diesel, or pumping possibly contaminated bilge water into my playground seems reasonable enough. My taxes are lower than they've been in many years so I don't have a problem seeing them go up if the money will be used to clean the bay in my backyard instead of funding corporate America, Wall street hedge fund guys and
KBR and Halliburton on their most excellent foreign adventures.
Call it a waste if you'd like but spending tax dollars on jobs for people who live around me who will spend their time cleaning up the bay I love to sail in sounds like a pretty good deal.
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  #17  
Old 01-04-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfok View Post
Of course regulation does work, the bay is far cleaner now than at any time in the last 40 years.
On just what basis do you state this as fact...? CBF and EPA says so...??

I can tell you for a fact, that in 1970, I could stand in 6 ft of water at Sandy Point Park, swim at the pilings of the Severn River bridge, stand in 6 ft of water at Calvert Cliffs or Westmoreland Park Cliffs as well as swim off the "Birthday Cake" mark 10 miles up from the mouth of the Potomac River at the Bay...and see my feet easily, the pilings and stone work, etc, etc. At least 6 to 10' vis, easily. As many or more places on the eastern shore and kent island as well. Even more clean water as you got to the BayBridge Tunnel and that tip of the eastern shore. You could even scuba dive, with out hazmat gear.

I have been to all those places and many more in the past 3-5 years, and I can tell you that several had "no swimming/diving/fishing/ or eating fish caught near there" postings, let alone 6 to 10' vis that was abundant in the late 70's.

So, NO the bay is NO cleaner now, than it was in 1970...now they will TELL you it is, and they will have a study that "indicates" it is cleaner...

But as Travlin, and his suggested book will show you....follow the money. BTW, Great Book!!

Both MD and COV, have in the past - passed "fuel taxes on boat fuels" for the express purpose of "enhancing boating and boater education" and you will find that shortly after the Pols discovered this NEW revenue stream, every penny of it was diverted to the "general fund" of each state, respectively.

So added taxes, do, nor will they do, anything to improve the Bay.
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  #18  
Old 01-04-2012
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Yeah - people we pay to study the bay say so. Don't confuse sediment with pollution. No Swimming/fishing signs are up because of regulation. The signs (or regulation) did not cause pollution.
The Clean Air and Clean water acts made a great difference, without them who can imagine what the bay would be like today. Regulation has been working to slowly improve conditions against a tide of commercial and corporate development and population growth throughout the watershed. Simply not getting worse year after year is a partial victory Do you really think we'd be better of had nothing been done in the last 40 years? Do you believe we should abandon all efforts now so we can save a few bucks on taxes?

Last edited by Dfok; 01-04-2012 at 01:46 PM. Reason: added text
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  #19  
Old 01-04-2012
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Quote:
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230,000 jobs. Huh? Just how....where DOES he get those numbers.
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  #20  
Old 01-04-2012
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The argument is not over whether all would want a cleaner ecosystem. The argument is how to clean it with a sustainable economic approach.

The irony here is that the greed of the environmentalists to take tax dollars for their cause, is no different that the greed of the corporations to keep the money for their cause. Both are self righteous and ineffective over the long term.

We need rational, sustainable policy. Not win-lose.
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