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  #221  
Old 01-13-2012
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Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Hey Chris,

Long time. You have to send me an update on the latest happenings with you.
Ditto, I'll shoot you a pm sometime this evening (heading out after this post). You wouldn't recognize her (or prolly us) anymore btw, we really went a lot farther than we had planned.. almost done, too..
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  #222  
Old 01-13-2012
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lying ahull and running bare poles

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Nother question for the storm sailors:

What is the difference between "lying a hull" and "running with bare poles". I understand lying a hull is when you basically batten down the hatches and go below, pray, and wait out the storm basically doing nothing.

Running with bare poles you are using the wind on the rig to push you down wind while you steer (or use windvane or auto pilot). But seems running with bare polls would be difficult since the following seas would be huge and the forces of the seas on your boat would overwelm the wind force on your rig and then your boat would go out of control. So how do you really control a boat while running with bare polls?
Running with bare poles means sailing with no sail up. I seem to remember that Moitessier's approach was to have sail up (forward I assume) so that you would faster and hence have a greater ability to control the boat. So running with bare poles is really just a version of running off.

I mentioned that we did lie-ahull but it was not in survival conditions for sure. By the time we got to trying that it was blowing around 45 knots and decreasing and the waves were not too big - maybe 15' or so. In those conditions we were very pleased with the results, but we are extremely confident in our boat. It is an excellent capsize ratio and it is built like a tank with a very strong, simple rig. One can never know, but I would be very surprised if we lost the rig if we got rolled - don't want to test the hyothesis though.
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  #223  
Old 01-13-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Yea but think of this, look at all the boats that get left at sea (abandon by the crew because they thought the boat was unsafe or maybe someone was injured) and later the boat is found in near perfect condition. The boat survived on its own basically lying a hull. Most boats are probably stronger than the crew and may do better in a storm (assuming all sails are taken down) on their own than with actions from the crew.
Good point, but I'd still never do it... would you?
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  #224  
Old 01-13-2012
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Originally Posted by chrisncate View Post
Good point, but I'd still never do it... would you?
My boat is the same as what Jon Sanders used for a non stop double circum-navigation. It worked for him so in real survial conditions, I would go for it. Lie a hull may be safer than being on deck and rolled 360 degrees, below deck you have a chance, and even if active sailing in a small boat, you could still easily get rolled or 180 degree knock down in real survial conditions.

One thought, why do we always hear using drogues and sea anchors on sail boats? What do small, medium or large commercial fishing or merchant ships do? There are a lot of these ships out there in the 100 to 150 foot range that need to deal with these storms.
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  #225  
Old 01-13-2012
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Fish boats just motor slow and take it on the chin. It's called dodging .If it gets real bad you die.The book 'Posted Missing 'has some interesting examples you wouldn't want to see first hand.
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  #226  
Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Yea but think of this, look at all the boats that get left at sea (abandon by the crew because they thought the boat was unsafe or maybe someone was injured) and later the boat is found in near perfect condition. The boat survived on its own basically lying a hull. Most boats are probably stronger than the crew and may do better in a storm (assuming all sails are taken down) on their own than with actions from the crew.
I partially agree with you on this Casey. I'm sure that many boats are abandoned before they are in danger of sinking and I'm also sure that as long as a huge wave doesn't break on the boat it will probably survive. It seems to me though, that if you just batten down the hatches and leave the boat to fend for itself, you run the risk of it turning beam on to the sea, which would not be good. And I'm not so sure you would be any safer inside the boat rather than on deck in case of a rollover or even a knockdown.

I watched a video that was posted on another thread where they rigged up the interior of a typical cruising boat with gear that would normally be carried. They even put crash dummies and video cameras inside the cabin to capture the action. They ran straps under the hull and then proceeded to roll the boat steadily over until it rolled 360 degrees. it was total chaos inside as things fell out of shelved and dropped across the cabin! I would NOT have wanted to be inside that thing. This was dockside in a controlled environment. I could only imagine the injuries you could sustain in an actual rollover during a violent storm. That video is on youtube.

With that said, I finally got my copy of the Pardey's book "Storm Tactics" and have made it to chapter 5 so far. They tend to look at lying ahull as a chancy and potentially dangerous thing and seem to favor heaving-to and add a para anchor with adjustable bridle when it really gets nasty. They say heaving-to creates a "slick" of disturbed water as the hull, pointing around 50 degrees off the wind, makes slow leeway as Chrisncate referred to. I've never experienced it but apparently this slick reduces much of the waves strength. They make several observations of waves breaking fore and aft of their boat but not on the boat.

Even disregarding the Pardeys experience, in my own opinion I would not want to trust to blind luck. At the least, I would want to deploy a sea anchor to keep my bow to the waves if it got that bad. After reading what little that I have of their ideas so far, they make sense and would be good tricks to have up your sleeve. I do think that several poster's have the right idea when they say that every boat/crew, wind, and wave combination is different.

Regards
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  #227  
Old 01-14-2012
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Dean

I just posted a link to the Yachting Monthly videos to which you referred.

Ever wonder ...

Great minds ....
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  #228  
Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Dean

I just posted a link to the Yachting Monthly videos to which you referred.

Ever wonder ...

Great minds ....
Thanks for that post Jackdale. I hadn't seen the other ones but they are real eye openers. This is the one I was refering to...

Yachting Monthly's Crash Test Boat Capsize - YouTube

It's a link to the one I watched on youtube, which is part of the series that you posted. I really couldn't imagine the violence that would happen inside the cabin had that test been done during the dynamics of a violent storm. I can't recall if it was during a rollover, broach, or pitchpole but in the Pardey's book, Lin Pardey was thrown out of her bunk and noticed as she was getting up that she had left indentations of her teeth in the woodwork.

Scary stuff...
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  #229  
Old 01-14-2012
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Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
I'm not a hard-core purist, but so far, I can find no incentive to upgrade from hanks.
My first boat had a hanked-on jib, and I always wanted a roller-furler. My current boat has a roller-furler, and I sorta wish it hand hanks instead.

As long as a furler works, it's great. When it doesn't, it's a pain in the a$$ (and a potential disaster). If I had an off-shore boat I think I would definitely rig it with hanked foresails. But, since I don't, I'll just use what I have until it breaks or wears out, and then switch to hanks (and probably start wishing I had a furler again).
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  #230  
Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
No worries flood. Actually, I had the stopper knot thing happen to me and came within maybe 30 feet of being on the rocks.

Some friends had taken the boat out a week or two before and had, for whatever reason, untied the knots in the jib sheets. I didn't check them before we went out. We got hit with a serious blast of wind in a very tight channel, wife lost the sheet in a tack, it pulled through the block and went in, and we started heading broadside to the rocks.

I grabbed the lazy sheet which had thankfully hung up and tried to get it around the winch so try to claw away...no luck. I pulled the lost sheet from the water - but was out of time. We had maybe another 30 seconds before things got crunchy.

Luckily the motor started first pull (which was never a given) and we clawed off.

I'm now pretty good at checking those knots (but I'm sure there's lots of other stuff I'm NOT checking - that I WILL be after it bites me).
Maybe I should post this in the cruising with kids thread......
.......but for what it's worth we discovered recently that 11 month old babies find untying figure 8's very amusing.

In a squall off bundy we however were not particularly amused when a jibsheet slipped through the block in 35+ knots.

We no longer use figure 8's for stopper knots
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