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  #261  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakeParagon View Post

Just before I sold my Westsail 32 I purchased a Gale Rider drogue made mostly of webbing and was impressed by how good the construction seemed. I couldn't imagine it being ripped apart or getting fouled.. But I never got to use it..

It was really hard to not damage the JSD cones in the jib sheet winch when retrieving it, and i did end up having to sew quite a few of them back together.. I'm awestruck by HAL Roth's JSD Retrieval idea that I see in smackdaddy's last post here... I can't imagine that the cones could get damaged in my anchor bow roller or windlass.. WICKED COOL!!! How come I never thought of that?!? Wow!!!

Drake
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’m failing to see the brilliance of Hal’s plan… And, far be it from me to take issue with one of my alltime sailing heroes, Hal Roth, but I would seriously doubt he had ever attempted to retrieve a JSD in boisterous conditions, using such a method, without at least damaging the drogue heavily…

The JSD, considering what it is asked to do, is still a surprisingly “delicate” piece of gear… And the only “proper” manner of retrieving it will be a rather careful, if not painstakingly laborious, one… IMHO, the only real way to do it is to heave-to, stopping the boat’s forward motion as much as possible, and haul it back into the cockpit manually… As you know, that’s gonna require a tremendous amount of effort, especially in conditions that are still rough, but have abated sufficiently that you want to hit the road again…

That’s the big advantage of the Galerider, it’s relative ease of retrieval using winches, and what recommends its use in somewhat more “marginal” storm conditions… The deployment of a JSD, you’ve got to accept you’re likely to have to live with it for perhaps a longer period of time than you’d like…

But pulling one of those contraptions back over an anchor roller on a heaving foredeck in big seas (or, in your case, THROUGH your bowsprit on your Westsail) using an electric windlass, well – I just don’t see how you’re gonna manage that without basically tearing the cones to shreds… Anyone who has spent many a winter evening performing the endlessly tedious task of constructing their own Jordan Series Drogue, will definitely want to keep the damage to a minimum… (grin)

For me, this is yet one more example in favor of keeping boat size “reasonable” for shorthanded sailing offshore… On a boat up to 40’ or thereabouts, it should still be possible for an individual to manhandle such gear back on deck without mechanical assistance… But on the much larger boats so many people are now putting to sea aboard, the loads would simply be too great for the crew to deal with physically… (Not to mention, another argument for attempting to keep your stern rail as clean as possible by mimimizing 'de Crap on 'de Back... Try to either deploy or retrieve a JSD from inside a fully-enclosed aft cockpit, for example... (grin))

Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I’d recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid…. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be much lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package… Amsteel’s considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO…
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  #262  
Old 01-17-2012
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  #263  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...

Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I’d recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid…. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be much lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package… Amsteel’s considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO…
That's a great idea. I don't know how much the elasticity of the rope plays into the performance of the drogue - but everything else you mention sounds perfectly reasonable.
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  #264  
Old 01-17-2012
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To Jon's point, there is some interesting material on JSD retrieval here:

Storm Tactics

One experienced voyager describes not being able to retrieve the gear until the winds subside to 15-20. Lots of other interesting bits on the site too.
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  #265  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I can only imagine someone like Brad van Liew might get a hearty chuckle, listening to us cyber-sailors debate the question of whether roller furling headsails are suitable for offshore sailing…. (grin)



Don’t let your opinion be informed by an incident such as this, a failure suffered by an incompetent skipper in command of a piece of crap like CHA-CHA…
If you get to say, "Cha Cha is an outlier; you don't have to worry about ending up like him," then I get to say, "Brad van Liew is an outlier; I can't hope to end up like him."

Much as I might try
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  #266  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’m failing to see the brilliance of Hal’s plan… And, far be it from me to take issue with one of my alltime sailing heroes, Hal Roth, but I would seriously doubt he had ever attempted to retrieve a JSD in boisterous conditions, using such a method, without at least damaging the drogue heavily…

The JSD, considering what it is asked to do, is still a surprisingly “delicate” piece of gear… And the only “proper” manner of retrieving it will be a rather careful, if not painstakingly laborious, one… IMHO, the only real way to do it is to heave-to, stopping the boat’s forward motion as much as possible, and haul it back into the cockpit manually… As you know, that’s gonna require a tremendous amount of effort, especially in conditions that are still rough, but have abated sufficiently that you want to hit the road again…

But pulling one of those contraptions back over an anchor roller on a heaving foredeck in big seas (or, in your case, THROUGH your bowsprit on your Westsail) using an electric windlass, well – I just don’t see how you’re gonna manage that without basically tearing the cones to shreds… Anyone who has spent many a winter evening performing the endlessly tedious task of constructing their own Jordan Series Drogue, will definitely want to keep the damage to a minimum… (grin)

Finally, for anyone making up theit own JSD, I’d recommend considering the use of a Spectra rope like Amsteel instead of the more conventional double braid…. Because you can use a much smaller diameter rope, the weight of the assembly will be much lighter, it won't absorb water, and will stow in a far more compact package… Amsteel’s considerably more expensive, no doubt, but well worth it in this case, IMHO…
I really like your recommendation of using lighter and smaller diameter rope for the JSD! It's such a tedious task to pack all that thick and heavy stuff back in the bag..

In the 2 times that I brought in the JSD I used a self tailing jib sheet winch. A laborious task taking at least half an hour (and really killing my arm!).. I only ripped the cones when they got crunched in the self tailer part of the winch. My impression is that there would be less that could damage the cones if I did Hal Roth's way. I think the anchor roller and windlass drum are big enough for nothing to snag. Using the electric winch I could tail it myself... and I wouldn't have to kill my arm cranking... I'm looking forward to trying it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
For me, this is yet one more example in favor of keeping boat size “reasonable” for shorthanded sailing offshore… On a boat up to 40’ or thereabouts, it should still be possible for an individual to manhandle such gear back on deck without mechanical assistance… But on the much larger boats so many people are now putting to sea aboard, the loads would simply be too great for the crew to deal with physically…
On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...
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  #267  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakeParagon View Post


On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...
*Clueless Amatuer Alert*

I don't understand this statement. I admit that I have limited experience, and use hank-on jibs, but are you trying to furl while sailing off the wind? Couldn't you come close to the wind to unload the sail, and furl it, then fall back off and resume couse?

I realize that this may mean reversing course for a few minutes. What am I missing here?

Example: During last year's Governor's Cup, the wind built the point where the skipper ordered a headsail change. A less experienced driver was at the helm, and the crew couldn't haul the sail down (this sail was in a foil, not hanks). I nudged the helmsmen and told him to pinch up a bit to unload the sail, and it came right down. He thanked me for the reminder, later that night.
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  #268  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
I partially agree with you on this Casey. I'm sure that many boats are abandoned before they are in danger of sinking and I'm also sure that as long as a huge wave doesn't break on the boat it will probably survive. It seems to me though, that if you just batten down the hatches and leave the boat to fend for itself, you run the risk of it turning beam on to the sea, which would not be good. And I'm not so sure you would be any safer inside the boat rather than on deck in case of a rollover or even a knockdown.

I watched a video that was posted on another thread where they rigged up the interior of a typical cruising boat with gear that would normally be carried. They even put crash dummies and video cameras inside the cabin to capture the action. They ran straps under the hull and then proceeded to roll the boat steadily over until it rolled 360 degrees. it was total chaos inside as things fell out of shelved and dropped across the cabin! I would NOT have wanted to be inside that thing. This was dockside in a controlled environment. I could only imagine the injuries you could sustain in an actual rollover during a violent storm. That video is on youtube.

With that said, I finally got my copy of the Pardey's book "Storm Tactics" and have made it to chapter 5 so far. They tend to look at lying ahull as a chancy and potentially dangerous thing and seem to favor heaving-to and add a para anchor with adjustable bridle when it really gets nasty. They say heaving-to creates a "slick" of disturbed water as the hull, pointing around 50 degrees off the wind, makes slow leeway as Chrisncate referred to. I've never experienced it but apparently this slick reduces much of the waves strength. They make several observations of waves breaking fore and aft of their boat but not on the boat.

Even disregarding the Pardeys experience, in my own opinion I would not want to trust to blind luck. At the least, I would want to deploy a sea anchor to keep my bow to the waves if it got that bad. After reading what little that I have of their ideas so far, they make sense and would be good tricks to have up your sleeve. I do think that several poster's have the right idea when they say that every boat/crew, wind, and wave combination is different.

Regards
I saw the video of the roll over test. What I got from that is prepare you boat so that if you do roll, things do not go flying around that can hurt you. Your boat should be prepared like this no matter if you sail around the world or in a lake. Also, in survival conditions, I would try to spend most time in the bunk with heavy lee cloth holding me in, in case of a roll over. No matter what you are always safer inside the cabin than outside in a roll over. Can you hold your breath for 30 seconds in 35 deg F water at night and while in a panic teathered to a rolling boat? I do not think I could. When I say I would lay a hull, I would only do it in survival conditons- basically to windy to hove to and deal with any thing on the deck. I think I would rather lie a hull than set a sea anchor as I would not want the bow to go in deep to a breaking wave and have that wave go over the boat which may equal a roll over. Other boats may react with a sea anchor better and maybe that would be a better choice.
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  #269  
Old 01-17-2012
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Drake,
Did you do anything to strengthen you mast compression post? I was thinking that movement would really effect your standing rigging which may lead to a cable/fitting failure, as there would be a lot of fatigue and all your rigging pre-tension settings would be thrown off. I do not think you should have any noticable compression of the post.
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  #270  
Old 01-17-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drakeParagon View Post
On my smaller Westsail 32 I could always man handle the jib furler by pulling the line by hand. Difficult in heavier wind, but possible. But on my bigger Westsail 42 it's just about impossible to furl the jib in heavy air without a winch.. I think my big mistake was not installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib.. It made everything so much harder to correct when I accidentally gybed when that squall hit. I was spending forever battling with trying to get the jib in by pulling the line in by hand... Never again! I'm installing a self tailing winch for furling the jib before we push off...
I found this out the hard way, going from my C27 to racing on two 37'-ers. Just 10 more feet, but everything regarding the sails was way more intensive. For example, just hoisting the main on my first race on a PSC37 was surprising. I was grinding way longer than I was used to on my C27. I started to wonder if there was a "top".

Then the force of the sails and lines quickly taught me about the utility of the turning blocks for the sheets (which I have on my C27 but had never used out of ignorance - as mentioned above).

The forces on a big boat are pretty incredible.
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