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  #121  
Old 03-06-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

I really have to ask. Why WOULDN"T you offer a guarantee that your anchor won't bend in use? I used to sell a mechanical product that sold for $3,000 to $6,000, and I offered a 100% money back guarantee, with no time limit. A potential customer would approach me at a trade show and say they were considering my product and a competitors. I'd flip over the brochure and show them our guarantee in plain English on the back. Then I'd say "buy one of ours, buy one of theirs, send back the one you don't like! Or try mine first, and return it if you don't like it." My competitor had to go for it, or look unsure of his product. Mostly he went ballistic and scared off the customer completely! People would ask how I could make such an offer. It was easy, my worse downside was that I'd have to take one back, refurbish it and offer it at a substantial discount to one of customers that already had a number of them. So how much do you have to add to the cost of an anchor to cover the cost of an occasional bent one?

Gary H. Lucas
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  #122  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

Ccrider

I feel a bit embarrassed, someone has tidied a couple of my posts, whoever is responsible don’t try to educate me, not that I don’t appreciate but I am having enough trouble as it is just getting my words out, one key at a time, and thank god for word and spell check.
I really appreciate your comments, and no the shadows are getting far too long for me to worry about manufacturing in China.

GaryHlucas.

Hi Gary, fully understand where you are coming from but it’s not quite that simple, depending on the type of product you are selling you may well be able to make solid guarantees, when it comes to anchors and I can only comment on our design, two things, there is no way I would ever guarantee you won’t bend our anchor, further, I will not guarantee you will not drag our anchor, now there’s a mouth full for you.

Let me explain, we supply trawlers weighing up to 180 ton for example verses a150 k.G. anchor, our proof testing to the specs of the Marine authorities tells us the anchor is fairly bullet proof for straight line loads and most probably will handle the bulk of sideways thrust if the Authorities have got it right.

What this testing doesn’t tell us is how much load- force applied to the anchor if it is wedged in rocks with the forward thrust of a vessel weighing 180 ton when retrieving, you can apply this set of circumstances to every size boat anchor design, so if someone guarantees you, this anchor won’t bend? Keep looking for a more realistic company.

Same with your anchor dragging, there are so many factors that can and will cause anchors to drag other than design, making guarantees to the above is not only ridiculas but dangerous, regardless of where you anchor, what type of anchor, you should always stay alert for the obvious.

The assurance we give our customers is pure and simple.

First Our anchors are tested and certified,this the most important factor when purchasing an anchor.

Second we will give you three months to trial our anchor or a season of boating, if it doesn’t stand up to what we say, or you are simply not happy with its performance, you will get a full refund.

Three, if you bend our anchors shank then again take it back to the dealer and receive a free replacement, providing it's the right size anchor for the boat.

That’s the best I can do, I am not interested in second or third owners it all becomes too complicated, (reasons below explained)

By the way Brian from Fortress thanks for your kind words, Fortress anchors are a different design, breed and lend themselves to easily being identified, their componentry is complicated and good tooling is needed to copy, Fortress steel types are light and of high quality, finally you would only be replacing a part, not the whole anchor, what all of this means is Fortress are able to offer a unique service as you can be assured it is a genuine Fortress. First, second, third owner, it’s still a fortress.

When it comes to one piece anchors the whole ball game changes, false claims can easily be made on a cheap copy, some of these copies are so good you would not know the difference unless it is sent back to the manufacturer, all too complicated, so warranty to first owner only.

Regards.

Rex.

CEO of Anchor Right Australia

Last edited by congo; 03-07-2012 at 02:32 AM.
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  #123  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

What is so difficult about reading the online reviews of customers at the West Marine site? Yes, there are experiences of bent rocna's there, and yes WM apologized for the inferior metal on the WM review site. A photo of such an anchor was included there. Yes there are changes in the metal compositions of these anchors from what was promoted. Please read those reviews for yourself.
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  #124  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

Quote:
I don't think I could purchase an anchor manufactured in China at this time. Surely they are capable of some pretty sophisticated manufacturing, but I think the specification writer and the QC people have to be very smart (which maybe Rocna was not?).
If anyone figures out how to get their hands on one, let us know.-ccriders
Ah come on...if the Chinese can send spacecraft up in orbit, and if the can build nuclear reactors dont you think if they wanted to they could build a good anchor of quality if they wanted to.

If the designer doesnt design it to quality specs, and if they do they dont exercise quality control to the high standards during production then the anchor is crap....no matter where it is made. Just because it is Chinese produced doesnt mean it is inherently inferior.

Dave
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  #125  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

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Originally Posted by pft44 View Post
What is so difficult about reading the online reviews of customers at the West Marine site? Yes, there are experiences of bent rocna's there, and yes WM apologized for the inferior metal on the WM review site. A photo of such an anchor was included there. Yes there are changes in the metal compositions of these anchors from what was promoted. Please read those reviews for yourself.
Here is link to the Rocna reviews on the West Marine website.


ROCNA ANCHORS Fixed-Shank Scoop Anchors at West Marine

Neither of the two pictures of bent shanks are first hand posts. Just the same couple of pictures that have been repeated on many boating sites. As I am an owner of a 33lb China made Rocna purchased from West Marine I contacted WM late last year regarding the type of returns they had with the Rocnas. As of that point in time, probably late November, they did not have any Rocna's returned because of any type of damage or bending to either the shank or fluke.

Right now I'm keeping the Rocna. In part because of the info from WM and in part because there is some info indicating that the sub spec (pun intended) steel was not an issue with the 33 lb models. If and when the new manufacturer of Rocna's stock make their way to WM's shelves with the original speced steel I may exchange it.
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  #126  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Ah come on...if the Chinese can send spacecraft up in orbit, and if the can build nuclear reactors dont you think if they wanted to they could build a good anchor of quality if they wanted to.

If the designer doesnt design it to quality specs, and if they do they dont exercise quality control to the high standards during production then the anchor is crap....no matter where it is made. Just because it is Chinese produced doesnt mean it is inherently inferior.

Dave
I think that is just what I said.
John
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  #127  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
If the designer doesnt design it to quality specs, and if they do they dont exercise quality control to the high standards during production then the anchor is crap....no matter where it is made. Just because it is Chinese produced doesnt mean it is inherently inferior.

Dave
I agree. Case in point: the iPhone. Apple has stringent quality requirements, and their factory in China knows this. Their product reflects this.

The Chinese can manufacture anything we can, and do it more cheaply, but if you give them shoddy engineering to work with, or you don't exercise quality control, you get what you pay for.
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  #128  
Old 03-07-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

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Originally Posted by tomperanteau View Post
I agree. Case in point: the iPhone. Apple has stringent quality requirements, and their factory in China knows this. Their product reflects this.

The Chinese can manufacture anything we can, and do it more cheaply, but if you give them shoddy engineering to work with, or you don't exercise quality control, you get what you pay for.
Then can, but let's be sure we understand why it can be cheaper. Their labor is severely taken advantage of, just like ours was during the industrial revolution. Their day will come.

Secondly, the manufacturing culture there has ZERO patent infringement hesitation. Those that I know personally that have their products manufacturered in China know this and know there is nothing they can do about it. In the end, the cost is so low, it is still worth having some quantity of counterfeit product out there. The Chinese also realize just how much they can steal, with your knowledge, before you move out.

This system will crumble eventually. Corruption always does. As soon as there aren't enough chairs for everyone when the music stops, the guy left out will turn.
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  #129  
Old 03-08-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

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Originally Posted by BrianFortress View Post
Our Lifetime Parts Replacement Warranty covers any type of damage to the anchor. Parts are replaced for free, customer only pays shipping & handling, which is nominal since the parts are relatively light and we ship them via the US Postal Service.

Damaged parts do not have to be returned, and it does not matter if the customer is the original owner, or if he has a sales receipt, or if he sent in a warranty registration card.

Safe anchoring,
Brian

Fortress Marine Anchors

P.s. Good to see Rex aboard on this forum. A real gentleman and an innovative, highly-skilled anchor designer / manufacturer.

Brian

A few posts back I relay what I was told by West Marine about returns of damaged Rocnas being returned to them which was zero. Do you know how many if any Fortress anchors have been returned to WM. I guess I could ask WM but since you are here thought I'd ask. Do you think WM sells more Rocnas or Fortress anchors?

I believe WM based on my past experiences with thieir customer support and return policy. Do you think there is any reason to doubt what they said?
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Old 03-08-2012
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Re: A cast of characters - Rocna plot continues

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Originally Posted by LinekinBayCD View Post
Brian

A few posts back I relay what I was told by West Marine about returns of damaged Rocnas being returned to them which was zero. Do you know how many if any Fortress anchors have been returned to WM. I guess I could ask WM but since you are here thought I'd ask. Do you think WM sells more Rocnas or Fortress anchors?

I believe WM based on my past experiences with thieir customer support and return policy. Do you think there is any reason to doubt what they said?
We know exactly how many Fortress anchors are returned to West Marine, as they furnish us with very detailed weekly performance reports. Not all anchors are returned because of damage, sometimes the customer bought the wrong size, or it won't fit into their anchor locker, or they found a better deal somewhere else (i.e. used model on Craigslist), etc.

Obviously, we know how many anchors they send directly back to us for credit. Some are, in fact, damaged while others are simply scratched up and can't be sold as new.

As you would expect, West Marine closely guards information regarding competitive product lines, but we have been told that Fortress is the best-selling "premium" anchor that they carry.

I suspect that Rocna is neck and neck with Manson for sales at West Marine, as they obviously have similar rollbar designs, although I would expect Manson sales to be stronger in the future given the points brought out in this thread, i.e. higher grade steel, Lloyd's certified, comparable performance.

I don't have any reason to doubt what West Marine has said about the number of damaged Rocna anchors that have been returned, as I think from top to bottom they are very honest and straightforward people. Also, they are certainly not going to risk their stellar reputation or subject themselves to unnecessary risks by not being honest to the boating public about a safety equipment product.

That said, I don't know if the West Marine person who told you that returns were zero was referring to the returns at a single store or the returns for their entire 300+ store chain, or if he had the latest information, etc.

Last edited by BrianFortress; 03-08-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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