What $ value goes beyond Production Limits? - SailNet Community
View Poll Results: How much value added investment does it take before a boat exceeds production design?
<$10,000 0 0%
$10,000 - $30,000 2 16.67%
$30,000 - $50,000 3 25.00%
$50,000 - $100,000 0 0%
>$100,000 3 25.00%
No value added amount, makes a boat non-production. 4 33.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 44 Old 02-06-2012 Thread Starter
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What $ value goes beyond Production Limits?

To the thread "Production Boats and the Limits "; how much do value added modifications go above and beyond a production model options? Does it really matter? Or can a number be put on the price of a boat when factory design with all available factory options is exceeded by an unlimited amount of "toys" and structural modification.
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post #2 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Along the lines of the post I just added to the other thread, I don't think the dollar amount matters. It's more what is done/added to the boat.

Unless it's a significant change to the original structure/build of the boat, I'd still call a very, very expensively equipped Hunter/Catalina/Bene/etc. (especially one like Sequitur) an off-the-shelf production boat (maybe minus the cutter rig mod).

Childress made huge structural modifications to his Catalina 27 to do his circ. So you might have an argument there - but it's not so much about money. That said, there's no freakin' way I'd take my C27 on a big passage - but that may have more to do with the fact that I suck at sailing compared to guys like that.


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post #3 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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IMHP one of the bigger issues on Production boats is the preparation work NOT done to mount hardware as its pretty much drill and mount which results in a very easy to leak install

The better method of drilling the holes and removing core and pouring epoxy and re-drilling and countering sinking to make a good seal which keeps the core dry and provide a great long term seal that cost a LOT of time which is NOT in the budget

There is also a lot of pretty questional stuff that passes for seacocks in material ,install and accessabilty
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post #4 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
IMHP one of the bigger issues on Production boats is the preparation work NOT done to mount hardware as its pretty much drill and mount which results in a very easy to leak install
It depends on the boat and model. Lots of production boats are built today that have alum backing plates already installed in the deck for doing the add-ons. And they all are done that way regardless of whether the boat was ordered with the add-ons. Since most production boats come with various sail etc handling packages lots of them have the plates installed in just about any place one would expect to install one.

Other than that it isn't really the builder, it's the installer that should be questioned.

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post #5 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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I think the value verse cost far as a "production" boat goes one needs to decide that excatly you are talking about.

PS - 95% of boats are production boats, so you need to definite what you really are trying to discuss

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post #6 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
It depends on the boat and model. Lots of production boats are built today that have alum backing plates already installed in the deck for doing the add-ons. And they all are done that way regardless of whether the boat was ordered with the add-ons. Since most production boats come with various sail etc handling packages lots of them have the plates installed in just about any place one would expect to install one.

Other than that it isn't really the builder, it's the installer that should be questioned.


Get back to me when you need to remove one of the SS bolts from a 10 year old alum backing plate with that had a saltwater leak

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post #7 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
Get back to me when you need to remove one of the SS bolts from a 10 year old alum backing plate with that had a saltwater leak
Just to ask, how much are you to pay to do it a different way?

Or how are you going to pay the repair the damage that same leaking bolt causes on whatever other construction method you have in mind.

No one says you can not drill it out and and change it when you need to.

PS - mine are over 10 years old and none have not been a problem to remove when needed

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Last edited by Don0190; 02-06-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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post #8 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Along the lines of the post I just added to the other thread, I don't think the dollar amount matters. It's more what is done/added to the boat.

Unless it's a significant change to the original structure/build of the boat, I'd still call a very, very expensively equipped Hunter/Catalina/Bene/etc. (especially one like Sequitur) an off-the-shelf production boat (maybe minus the cutter rig mod).

...
All mass production boats permits some customization further than the optional that they purpose. Many times that customization works between the factory and the dealer. Of course it is important to have a major dealer and a knowledgeable one.

Some years ago I considered substitute my Bavaria by another one a bigger boat and I was thinking in the possibility of having a cutter rig: No problem said the dealer, we ask the factory to do the needed reinforcements and we do the rest. So, if I had bought that Bavaria would it not be a production boat? .and Bavaria is really a mass production boat.

More recently I was very close to buy a Salona and they were available to do lots of alterations on the boat, including a new and heavier keel, a bowsprit and even a special system to carry the dinghy on the transom. If I had that boat it would not be a production boat?

Regarding price and optional equipment brands like Bavaria have a huge list of optional that can really make a different boat and I am not talking about a teak deck or the interior TV but about a complete safety system with holding points and integrated jacklines, lead keel, offshore sails , performance rig , radar, outside plotter and so on. Just to give you an idea my previous boat cost me 50% more than the standard boat. Of course, it was as mass produced as any other Bavaria, just better equipped than most.

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post #9 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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No matter how much you put into it the boat will still be a Catalina 38 or Hunter 42 or Beneteau First 42 or a Noresman 400.

What I mean by that is the boat will be worth "marginally" more than "sisterships" but that is it.

I met Chris, MASCOT & his family years ago when off cruising. As near as I can tell he spent over 400k customizing an already very sweet boat, a Norseman 400. Added a few feet to her in the form of a very nice sugar scoop, custom this custom that, carbon bow sprit, thruster, new engine, Espar heat completely re-designed rudder etc. etc. They were selling used from $149l to $249k and when she was first listed she was over 500k asking price.. That was many years ago. Today she is down to 298k and is a STEAL at that price but even good examples of this boat are not selling at 149k....

If you've got the money this is one of the sweetest boats in her size range and outfitted and customized beyond belief.

If Bernie at Rogue Wave can't sell this boat I don't know who could...

Mascot Norseman 400

My point is you can customize to your hearts content but it does not mean it is a "different boat" or has magically changed into a Hinckley, Swan or Morris....
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post #10 of 44 Old 02-06-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
No matter how much you put into it the boat will still be a Catalina 38 or Hunter 42 or Beneteau First 42 or a Noresman 400.

What I mean by that is the boat will be worth "marginally" more than "sisterships" but that is it.

My point is you can customize to your hearts content but it does not mean it is a "different boat" or has magically changed into a Hinckley, Swan or Morris....
Maine is absolutely correct here. A heavily equipped boat X is still regarded as a boat X, not a custom boat nor does all that equipment change it's market reputation to a higher grade than the boat originally was. Just like you can over improve a house, you can do the same with a boat.

I think the biggest shock people have when selling is how little their megabuck electronics are now worth. I guess that one is like expecting a swimming pool to add a lot of value to a house. Both may affect their marketability but not their price, at least not much.

You can spend to your hearts content but when it comes time to sell, you aren't likely to get much, or anything, beyond the top of the market for that particular model of boat.
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I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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