What $ value goes beyond Production Limits?

[PCP]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

Maine is absolutely correct here. A heavily equipped boat X is still regarded as a boat X, not a custom boat nor does all that equipment change it's market reputation to a higher grade than the boat originally was. Just like you can over improve a house, you can do the same with a boat.

I think the biggest shock people have when selling is how little their megabuck electronics are now worth. I guess that one is like expecting a swimming pool to add a lot of value to a house. Both may affect their marketability but not their price, at least not much.

You can spend to your hearts content but when it comes time to sell, you aren't likely to get much, or anything, beyond the top of the market for that particular model of boat.

Not only the electronics but all those expensive equipment, specially the one to turn the boat in an offshore boat is not increasing the boat value significantly. People that are really interested in that equipment are just a small minority.

As a dealer told me, equipment and extras in a boat will make it sell faster but not for much more than a less equipped boat (and he was right)...and you are right, that is a shock when you try to sell the boat and realize that, at least it was for me.

Regards

Paulo

[jimmalkin]

To Maine's spot-on observation, I put almost exactly what I paid for a Passport 50 on top of the purchase price over 8 years into her to simplify her systems, to remove "marina entertainment accessories," to add new electronics, sails, gear and devices to make her a safe, comfortable and beautiful blue water boat.

I used Bernie at RogueWave and he and Kate are at least as adept at selling boats as anyone I know on the East Coast of the US.

I got back my original price. My efforts, thought and expense didn't amount to anything - the market saw a Passport 50 and paid for a Passport 50. End of story.

[creedence623]

My favorite example of a heavily modified boat that can't find a home:

1989 Catalina Custom Cutter sailboat for sale in Florida

Take a late 80's Catalina 36 (average retail $49,000-$55,000), add over $80,000 in ocean-going upgrades (that $80k is based on what I remember reading when this was listed a couple years ago- full disclosure that figure is subject to a crappy memory) to create a blue water Catalina 36.

It's been on the market for more than a couple years now, and is now listed about $10,000 LESS than an untouched model.

The lesson here is, modifications like this, to a boat like that appeal to a VERY narrow market. You may end up making something that only an owner can love. Be prepared to enjoy it for many years down the road, because it's going to be a tough one to sell. To add insult to injury, factor in today's used boat market.

[Minnewaska]

Upgrade a production boat with modern electronics is probably the best bang for the buck, but probably still about 50% of what you invest. Yours may sell first, if not for much more.

Adding a sugar scoop (wow!) is pretty neat, but offers very little in return compared to what must have been an extraordinary cost.

Then, of course, you can put all the lipstick on it you like. Awlgrip, fancy sails, brightwork, etc. But she is still the same production boat, just the nicest one.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Minnewaska

Upgrade a production boat with modern electronics is probably the best bang for the buck, but probably still about 50% of what you invest. Yours may sell first, if not for much more.

Adding a sugar scoop (wow!) is pretty neat, but offers very little in return compared to what must have been an extraordinary cost.

Then, of course, you can put all the lipstick on it you like. Awlgrip, fancy sails, brightwork, etc. But she is still the same production boat, just the nicest one.

Actually the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK, for me, is to keep your boat SPOTLESS and have the cleanest boat of her type on the market. This will cost you little other than your time & effort. The opposite of NEGLECT, that we so often see with over 90% of the boats being offered for sale....

Personally I often view electronics as a liability rather than a benefit. What that owner chose is not necessarily what I would choose. So that new Raymarine outfit to me is worth less than zero because it is not what I would want. Of course he thinks his choice was great, and thinks it should be worth "huge money". To me, it's not... It is what he "wanted" and he has a perceived value in it, which I do or may not.

I would also then need to nearly rip it all out to be sure it was even installed correctly which means yet more work for me. Electronics are one of the most often "hacked" installs on boats. You'd be horrified at some of the fluxgate installs I've seen let alone NEMA wiring that would not be prudent for "Erector Set" play let alone a voyaging vessel......

I would much rather find a CLEAN, WELL MAINTAINED vessel with some older electronics than a moldy, faded, abused, ridden hard, put away wet "mommy wagon" that has been treated worse than most mini-vans (this accounts for about 90% or more of the boats out there)...

When We look for a boat;

-Perfectly shiny topsides showing no dock rash, fender rash etc. and care well above average

-Smooth bottom with minimal paint build up, no blistering

-Spotless bilges / engine bay (no mold anywhere that can be seen or accessed)
No STENCH moldy, musty or crap stench, no massive amounts of engien rust

-Spotless interior cushions (no odd floral patterns)

-Varnish in tip top condition (interior and exterior)

-Cabin sole showing no water damage, peeling or lifting

-Electrical installations up to standards and well done

-Plumbing system up to standards, clean and no stench

-Dry bilge or an owner that tried to KEEP it dry. I prefer to find a turkey baster on-board used for bilge drying..

-Dry decks

-Well maintained seacocks

-Domestic water system free of mold and odor

When looking at boats the first place I go is the bilge, second is the engine bay. I often walk away after seeing just those two locations. They usually tell me all I need to know...

Receipts for:

New rigging (last 7-8 years)
Maintenance
Sails
Lifelines


Proof of:

Re-bedding
Rig inspections
Recent running rigging
Chain plate inspection/re-bedding

etc. etc..


These boats exist and they are worth FAR MORE to me than a 30 footer with a water-maker, self steering and "new electronics" as very often these add "features" are "hacked" installs anyway.. Saw one boat with "added self tailing spinnaker winches" that were screwed into the coaming boards. One had partially ripped out just from being used to tie to the dock. Had never been used with the chute.....thank God....

Then there was the boat we viewed with an "upgraded cutter rig"... Rig had clearly never been used because the deck attachment was two 1/4" bolts and a deck pad eye, sized for a Sunfish, backed up with regular split lock washers. When the broker asked the owner about it his response was "we never had to use it"... No kidding...... Didn't even bother examining the mast attachment which was likely a couple of aluminum rivets done with a K-Mart rivet gun..

[JonEisberg]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Actually the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK, for me, is to keep your boat SPOTLESS and have the cleanest boat of her type on the market. This will cost you little other than your time & effort. The opposite of NEGLECT, that we so often see with over 90% of the boats being offered for sale....

Exactly, spot on...

That, and making the effort to "stage" the boat properly, prior to the taking of photographs - i.e., relocating the piles of sail bags and other assorted crap from the vee-berth, before taking the pics of the "forward stateroom"...

Absolutely mind-boggling, how many boats presented on Yachtworld and elsewhere can't even seem to manage such a simple, basic step... As you say, such things speak volumes about what you're gonna find upon inspection, if you're dumb enough to be even tempted to bother... (grin)

[sea_hunter]

I tend to disagree with those that say "X" will always be "X". Once the sailing characteristics have been modified the boat exceeds (or is reduced) from factory specifications. Displacement/weight alone can change the capsize ratio, comfort ratio and angle of vanishing stability (ability to recover). Once a boat deviated from the one-design rule, it is no longer a production boat and cannot compete as a production boat because of the differentiated handicaps. So how does this change if your boat's a cruiser? Modifying the depth of keel, (as in the Sequitur) water line length, or mast height or configuration changes the way the boat sails outside of production characteristics and or capabilities. Our boat, with a factory displacement of 33000lbs now tops 46000 give or take 1500lbs. We've had to modify the steerage, sail configuration and rigging to manage the added weight. She's no longer the same boat built back in 1979.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by sea_hunter

I tend to disagree with those that say "X" will always be "X". Once the sailing characteristics have been modified the boat exceeds (or is reduced) from factory specifications. Displacement/weight alone can change the capsize ratio, comfort ratio and angle of vanishing stability (ability to recover). Once a boat deviated from the one-design rule, it is no longer a production boat and cannot compete as a production boat because of the differentiated handicaps. So how does this change if your boat's a cruiser? Modifying the depth of keel, (as in the Sequitur) water line length, or mast height or configuration changes the way the boat sails outside of production characteristics and or capabilities. Our boat, with a factory displacement of 33000lbs now tops 46000 give or take 1500lbs. We've had to modify the steerage, sail configuration and rigging to manage the added weight. She's no longer the same boat built back in 1979.

Yes, you CAN change the vessel in characteristics, but you don't change the "value" or its "worth" on the open market much if any. In lots of cases, as in that Catalina 36 posted above, you often reduce what it is worth. Most buyers looking for a Catalina 36 would not give you $30.00 for that boat and most buyers looking for a "blue water capable" boat would not give a second look to a "customized" or some might consider a "bastardized" Catalina 36....

Your original question was related to value? No?

Originally Posted by sea_hunter

Or can a number be put on the price of a boat when factory design with all available factory options is exceeded by an unlimited amount of "toys" and structural modification.

You won't change the re-sale value of a production boat enough to recoup even a few thousand in "upgrades" to be worth a few percentage points more than another one of similar model despite all the "changes"...

Sure you can change one, just not so much for re-sale purposes. I have seen this SAME scenario played out time and time again and I've yet to meet anyone who "beat the street".

Mascot, as linked to above, is a VERY, VERY good example of a WELL DONE, WELL EXECUTED, PROFESSIONAL IN EVERY WAY SHAPE AND FORM CUSTOMIZED & PROFESSIONALLY REFIT Norseman 400. Despite her Morris/Hinckley quality level of re-fit she has taken SIX FIGURE price reductions and is still above what they sell for. She has still not sold.......

Personally I think she is worth every penny, one of the best custom re-fits I've seen, but a buyer needs to consider that when they buy a boat at 2X the going rate, and they still technically have a Norseman 400 (no matter how "custom"), how will they sell it...?

If your re-fit is VERY, VERY good and the boat is bristol/spotless you might be able to get 10% more than going high rate for your model but in this market even 10% is likely a "stretch goal".. That being said just keeping your boat spotless will put you at the top of the market and will cost you 30k-400K less.....

We have a highly customized CS-36T that I can nearly guarantee is the cleanest and nicest example of this boat anywhere. It is still not worth a few percentage points more than the highest CS-36T sale out there.... I am not delusional enough to even consider that it is this is why she is not for sale and is a "keeper"....

We have at least double what she is worth, into her, and she's still worth what the market will bear. Which, with ANY boat, is what "sister-ships" are selling for customized or not......

[sea_hunter]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Yes, you CAN change the vessel in characteristics, but you don't change the "value" or its "worth" on the open market much if any.....
Your original question was of value? No? You won't change the re-sale value of a production boat enough to recoup even a few thousand in "upgrades" to be worth more than another one of similar model despite all the "changes"...

While I can't disagree with you that a boater and his money are soon parted, the point of the thread is; how much value added modifications, additions or features changes the boat from a "production" model designation. Can a value be attached to these mods and with these changes-upgrades, will it be the same boat or a different one? My view is that "X" will look like a "X", but will really be an "Y".

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by sea_hunter

While I can't disagree with you that a boater and his money are soon parted, the point of the thread is; how much value added modifications, additions or features changes the boat from a "production" model designation. Can a value be attached to these mods and with these changes-upgrades, will it be the same boat or a different one? My view is that "X" will look like a "X", but will really be an "Y".

You can change a rudder and go from X to Y or cut a few feet off a mast and go from X to Y. All that will cost you a couple of hack saw blades and some mechanical fittings. People change/better & ruin boats daily and you don't always need a dollar value to do so... As the public see's the boat however it will still be sold as a Catalina 36 (with customized mast)


A local guy cut 18" off the keel of his boat AGAINST THE ADVICE OF BRUCE KING her DESIGNER. Never understand why you'd call the designer then do the exact opposite, but I digress... While the modification worked for the owner it is a HUGE hindrance for resale. Yep the boat was changed, FOR THE WORSE....

You can always re-model your boat, apply to the USCG for a new Hull ID Number, as a Sea Hunter 50 but who's going to look at a one off? Especially when they realize it is not a "one off" but rather a customized Endevour... ?

I know some very sweet one-offs that sell for a fraction of what they "should" be worth so you're probably better to leave it an Endevour.