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  #11  
Old 10-27-2003
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wave sounds on stern

Duane & the group:

"But if clever interior design gives you lots of storage, appropriate seating and settee berths, fold-up tables, room for extra tankage and the inevitable accessory or two, and still allows one to move safely about below in a seaway, I see that as a positive thing."

Well, when considered alone, I agree. But of course, the boat has a few ''operational'' requirements it should meet, as well. I think John''s last statement does a nice job of making the point I was attempting to make: to the extent the *liveable* area is maximized by the design, it inevitably encroaches on other aspects of the design...like seaworthiness, functionality, etc. (After all, it was vertical height in the 70''s, beam in the 80''s and now extended waterlines from the 90''s onwards that are all attempts to make a given boat "more" than in reality it can be without some inevitable sacrifice. It''s a fool''s errand IMO and looking at any of the so-called ''bubble boats'' out of the water makes this quite clear. The amount of ''interior volume'' that ends up above that waterline far exceeds the amount of hull that lives below it and must do the work of the vessel in the dynamic ocean.

However, I was trying to specifically point to the incongruity which exists between a buyer selecting a boat that puts his ear right next to the transom and then feeling there might be a problem because water noise is keeping the crew awake at night. There''s no free lunch, I''m afraid, and it just seems as tho'' that''s an understandable, predictable consequence of choosing that shape of hull and interior layout, not something that''s ''wrong'' or needs to ''be fixed'' after the fact. Of course, I''m proven wrong by the fact that there are already products intended to deal with that. Anyone else look at the URL that was offered? What a hoot - I can just imagine a tough daysail, getting the anchor (and hen some dinner) down, and then needing to rig my ''blankie'' back aft before retiring.

John''s comment about a Big V-berth is a good point, especially when considered in light of the vestigal forward cabins on many layouts these days. Our WHOOSH suffers from many compromises but to better illustrate John''s/my point, our forward cabin - aft of the V-berth and its very large shelves - offers a sink and adjacent counter space, 9 drawers, 6 cabinets, one hanging locker and a large sole-mounted locker that swallows the sewing machine. I don''t think Pearson and Bill Shaw really deserve all the credit for that - it''s just what the market was requiring from a builder of a 40''+ boat in the 70''s and 80''s. But things change and now it''s the Center Queen that must be offered, back aft of course and usually immediately adjacent to the counter and the wave slap...as tho'' we''re surprised by that. We have an aft cabin too but, like many other designs of the time such as a Westsail 43, Valiant 40, CL Offshore 41, etc. the head of the berth is roughly 14'' from the transom, and the cabin separated from the transom by several cockpit lockers. Alas, we have no Center Queen...which is a ''problem'' for which I don''t think I need a solution.

Sorry for not being clearer, and for being grumpy about this whole subject...but I think we tend to view boats as some hybrid entity now, as tho'' today''s boats can help us avoid suffering from the realities that used to exist when aboard an older boat. Instead, we''re just being hoodwinked (and perhaps with a little willingness on our part) by clever designers, a restating of a boat''s primary requirements, and some truly spectacular marketing efforts.

Jack
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  #12  
Old 10-28-2003
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wave sounds on stern

Jack,

Thanks for that long and thoughtful reply. While you might consider yourself to be temporarily a bit "grumpy" (to use your word) on this subject, your opinion is always very welcome. I don''t have the sailing experience, knowledge, or historical perspective that you and many others here have, which is why I find this forum so great.

As a complete neophyte to big boat sailing just 3 years ago, I was ignorantly (and temporarily) impressed with the open spaces and floating condo effect down below in our boat show forays. It was only after educating myself and sailing on a few of these boats that I realized that there were penalties to be paid for taking that approach to the extremes that many of the current crop have done.

I agree that a boat must be a boat first, and that there are limits to what you can do to mitigate the characteristics that some might find to be uncomfortable or even unacceptable. I guess my point is that while the current big-selling production boats may not represent a better overall design than those of several decades ago, I find it hard to believe that there is no room left for improvement.

Of course, the biggest caveat in all of this is the "intended use." What one might consider inappropriate for one type of usage, might be an acceptable compromise for another.

Cheers,

Duane
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Old 10-28-2003
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wave sounds on stern

Duane, I think your last two points are very valid and contradict your notion of being a neophyte. And while it destroys the thread continuity, I suppose, exploring both of them might be useful.

"I guess my point is that while the current big-selling production boats may not represent a better overall design...I find it hard to believe that there is no room left for improvement."
Where is it logical that we look for those improvements? Conceptually, the next new boat we find in the marketplace is going to be a product of naval architecture, marketing considerations, production capabilities, boat systems and ''style''. Style will always ebb & flow and, relative to true improvement, I think can be considered irrelevant. Designing a significantly better hull & rig, with all the related elements, doesn''t strike me as the place to expect huge advances. (Or if there are advances, they are pretty easily identified). Computers, very talented designers, and many decades of experience at sea have pretty much clarified the consequences of the design choices made. Instead, it''s a marketing decision (by a large corp or perhaps a small builder like Tom Morris or Caliber Yachts) of what they think is marketable, with the design choices made accordingly. Again, not much of a source for true innovation & improvement. That leaves us with the manufacturing process itself and new/improved/integrated systems, which is where I think I''ve seen the most real improvement in how a sailboat functions at sea over the last few decades. Yet that''s not where we look as boat buyers - we presume the advanced systems can be tacked onto our boat of choice (so one boat is as good as another re: systems) and most of us don''t even consider inspecting the manufacturing facility and evaluating the boat choice with that in mind; we think we''re addressing that when we look at the end product.

I''m reminded of that PBO assessment I mentioned in another thread recently: Bavaria Yachts makes a very conscious choice - they decide the size boat they next want to build, benchmark the pricing of the competition, determine the price their boat must be sold at, and then build it to that price. One way they do that is thru production innovation, including improvement in production efficiencies, just as Beneteau became a price leader in the same way some years back. The problem for we consumers is that innovation that might be trumpeted as ''improvement'' in the boat itself is, in reality, production innovation. When I see a saildrive installation on a boat touted as cruising-capable, that''s what I think is happening. The designer is able to do more with the interior, the engine mfgr. can produce a less expensive powertrain (all components considered), and the builder can offer a less costly boat that''s easier to build. There''s nothing wrong with that per se and each of these can be claimed an ''improvement...except that it happens to be contrary to the needs of a cruising sailor. (I wonder about returning to So California sailing or doing another ICW up/back trip with a saildrive that needs servicing every 100 hrs, perhaps with a lift being necessary to replace the gear oil).

"Of course, the biggest caveat in all of this is the "intended use." What one might consider inappropriate for one type of usage, might be an acceptable compromise for another."
Exactly so. Which is why a huge, systems-to-the-max Bubble Boat may be an entirely reasonable choice for someone who entertains at the dock, wants a ''getaway cabin'' to escape to, and who sails locally and with a known forecast. It''s also why folks posting queries on this BB and others about "cruising"-related topics need to be clearer about what kind of cruising is intended. Some actually think "cruising" means the two-week summer vacation. Others see this as a chance to step out of one region (the Chesapeake perhaps) for another (down the ICW or up to New England), a ''coastal cruising'' plan. Usually, it seems, folks start out with an open-ended notion (''down to the Caribbean and then we''ll see; perhaps the Canal...'') and don''t realize relative to boat choice and many other related issues, how extreme the demands are with such a potential plan...nor how the plan should shape the fundamental choices of hull shape, how the rig is worked, what the layout must provide and of course how the boat is built.

Perhaps we need our own BB classification system?
''W'' - weekend/week-long cruises
''C'' - coastal cruising (limited offshore, primarily day-hops)
''R'' - regional cruising; 2-3 day non-stop runs possible occasionally & in season
''O'' - offshore; time extends well beyond reliable weather forecasts at departure; availability of diverting to seek assistance sometimes not possible

Jack
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2003
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wave sounds on stern

Thanks, Jack. As always, you supply more cogent analysis which gets one thinking.

BTW, using your cruising definitions, we expect to start with a few W''s, then do a sabbatical C, and move up to a lot of R.

Duane
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Old 10-29-2003
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wave sounds on stern

Nice classification system Jack. Interesting that the abbreviations work out to be C R O W. Crow has a good deal of nautical association. Crow''s nest on a ship and of course the insignia for US Navy enlisted personnel is the crow. hmmmmmmmm

At any rate, I have been all four and am currently fitting the new (to me) boat for O so...I guess *I* can go CROW. :O))))

Thanks for the indulgence.

John
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Hood 38
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Old 10-30-2003
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wave sounds on stern

I want to thank all who responded to may initial request for information. I know its hard to communicate from afar, but I appreciate the thoughts, especially the classification by Jack. I guess we''re an "R" getting ready for an "O" next year as soon as we can sell the house/inn. See you "out there".
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Old 07-18-2006
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Its the Idiots that Make Sailnet Great!

I love reading old threads during lunch or breakfast because people are just so full of you know what.

Here is a thread that demonstrates for me why Sailnet is so completely hilarious. Some poor guy asks a simple question about water slapping on the transom of his boat.

No one knows the answer for correcting the problem. But does that stop goofball after goofball from lecturing him about being a dope for complaining or just making up an answer? Hell No! This thread is hilarious....

So sorry it took three years for someone to give you an answer Dude. Here is a thread that contains an actual product. You are not alone!!!!

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...o=60&group=185

Last edited by Surfesq; 07-18-2006 at 11:41 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-18-2006
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Perhaps...

Pull your boat and put it on blocks in the yard

No water = no Noise
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Old 07-18-2006
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What is that? A boat diaper?
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Old 07-18-2006
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I don't know if this will work, but I would try floating my dinghy of the stern to cover as much area as possible and to try and use it as a "wave screen"

If you do try it, let me know if it works.

Harry
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