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  #21  
Old 02-19-2012
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Geometry is the key to sailing as well as your question. All stays support the mast and work together. Remove one by common sense is removing the support for the mast. This is not something to be argued or have an opinion about. You are subtracting one of the sides of one of the triangles holding the mast. You need to replace it with a temporary fix. Period.

Suggestions to use a halyard are good ones. It is the exact procedure you do in an emergency when you have a forestay failure when running.

Is it safe to go up with just one halyard. No, but it is far more unsafe to go up with two halyards and no forestay. Do it right and stop arguing the point

Dave
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  #22  
Old 02-19-2012
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This isn't as complicated as some are making it out to be.

Go up the mast on two halyards with the forestay in place. Shackle a line at the masthead (is there a crane? spare attachment points?) and bring it down with you. Run that line to a hard point forward such as a bow cleat and harden it up. Now you can go back up the mast on two halyards and disconnect the existing forestay for the repairs you plan. You'll want yet another line to lower the forestay with as trying to manage it when you are the weight on a pendulum coming down is awkward at best.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2012
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In response to your question as to whether the shroud provide most of the mast's support they do, When the boat is sailing and the wind is on the beam. If the boat is sailing down wind the backstay provides most of the support. If you are aloft in a bosun's chair it would be hard to predict the direction of the force on the mast as you move and the boat moves. Use a halyard as a forestay; anything else is too dangerous.

Better yet, bite the bullet and use a professional rigger.
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  #24  
Old 02-19-2012
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This subject has been beaten to death, and Stearman driver along with it. I generally feel that there is undue paranoia about going up the mast from most sailors that haven't done any rock/mountain climbing, and if you lack experience it is best to be overly cautious. Regarding the subject of this thread, if I had two halyards I would rig one as a temporary forestay, but if I only had one I would go up the mast without the forestay attached and not be too concerned, but that's just me. Stearman driver started the thread to learn something, telling him he's stupid, has a death wish, candidate for Darwin award, etc. accomplishes nothing, other than to guarantee he doesn't ask anymore questions here IMO.
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Old 02-19-2012
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I've watched my keel-stepped mast swaying fore-aft as the boat was moved along an uneven gravel yard. The forestay had been detached to clear the crossbar on the travelift and I hadn't rigged a babystay 2/3 height forestay) before they moved it.

The shrouds and backstay were all attached, but there was nothing other than the stiffness of the mast to keep it from moving in the aft direction. What struck me was how much flex there was in the mast. I didn't need to do the math: my gut told me why a forestay is important, even without a body hanging off the mast.

So here's the logic part: your shrouds support the mast in the lateral direction only. The backstay keeps it from bending forward. The forestay keeps it from moving aft. If you don't have a forestay or its equivalent, you are relying on the stiffness of the mast to keep it from folding aft. After watching my mast swaying as the travelift moved along, I would trust my gut: No way I'd go aloft without a fully guyed mast.
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Old 02-19-2012
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John,

I agree with most of what you said. It makes no sense in ridiculing an individual who asks a question by personal name calling or insulting remarks. This individual also decided to argue back with people giving him good advice too.

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Hey, thanks for that thread, med. And I do understand the force vectors as you mention them... but still, aren't the shrouds doing the main mast support? If they aren't then I've read several inaccurate books and treatises on rig trim - not an impossibility, certainly.

So you're telling me you'd REALLY trust going aloft with one halyard more than you'd trust multiple shrouds to support a mast?

Re: mast stepping, we were told during the survey that the mast was keel stepped. It certainly APPEARS keel stepped, with no obvious fixture holding it at the deck. I've seen references to C27s both ways online, hence the confusion... but I guessed that if it were deck stepped there'd be a pretty obvious fixture where it meets the deck, no?

Thanks again...
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In addition when you have reached your tipping point in thinking something has been beaten to death feel free to just move on and not read anymore of the thread. Shutting down others opinions is not anymore appropriate than castigating the questioner or being rude or ridiculous to the questioner in this case. I usually find you opinions spot on .

I felt the best advice came in post 22 by Dave (SV Auspicious) when he recapped what had been suggested before in posts in a pretty package with a bow.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 02-19-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 02-19-2012
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Chef- you're right of course, it's not my place to tell others not to beat up on a newbie looking for advice. Seems like there's been a lot of personal insults and name calling here lately, guess it's getting to me. Apologies to any/all I offended, wasn't trying to cut off anyone giving good advice, just the unnecessary insults. ps. I didn't take Sdriver's response to be argumentative at all, just looking for clarification, maybe I'm wrong.
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  #28  
Old 02-19-2012
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In a way, I hate to get involved in this. I just can't get past the "keel stepped mast" thing, though. There is simply no room for different opinions here, the mast is not keel stepped. None were. Go inside the boat and look for a mast. You won't see one. There isn't one! It doesn't come through the deck, does it? If you can't figure that out I question your ability to perform any mechanical tasks on this boat.
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Old 02-19-2012
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I don't think that you are being argumentative so much as confused by not having context for what you have read. People, including sometimes posters on sailnet, tend to fill in the lack of visual and audio cues (that result from the written word compared to speaking face to face) with their own prejudices. Don't focus on the perceived tone of others' remarks. I am sure that they are mostly more cordial in real life than when typing on a forum thread.

Back to your question: Put simply, the shrouds do not stop a mast from going backwards and forwards to any great extent but, under most sailing conditions the wind is coming from the side and so they are providing the bulk of support to your mast. The exceptions are when you are motoring into the wind and when you are running (which probably are a minority of most people's sailing time). Therefore the text books are not lying, they may have provided implicit context that you did not notice.

How can you tell if the mast is keel stepped? If you cannot see the mast coming through the deck (try going below and looking up at the spot where the bottom of the mast should be - use a tape measure to check you have the right spot if you are in any doubt) then it it deck stepped and your surveyor was mailing it in rather than bothering to look at the boat. You might then treat anything else in the report with some skepticism.

You have to weigh the risks of not having a safety line versus the risk that your safety line is attached to something that is not guaranteed to be safe -- in risk assessment terms, there is a "bow tie" in the analysis; the same single event (a mast failure) passes through all of your mitigation measures (tying yourself to the top of the mast with two lines instead of one).

The reason that people with experience suggest adding a halyard as a temporary forestay is that they have seen masts break more often than they have seen a recently inspected halyard part without warning.

There is plenty on the thread to answer your "proof" request. You could put everyone out of their misery by posting that you have read and understood so that they do not feel the need to keep on posting. However, even if you still disagree, please just let me know whether your mast was keel stepped or not, so that I can sleep at night without wondering........
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Old 02-19-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stearmandriver View Post
What all seems insane about this? And WHY do I need a forestay, when if anything my weight should be pulling the mast FORWARD? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to understand. That's why I asked. I don't just want to be told what to do, I want to know WHY?

Thanks!Joe
Think about how much you weigh, now multiply that by the height of your mast in feet - that's the number of foot-pounds of leverage or torque you are applying when you are at the top. - Pretty big number isn't it? It gets even bigger when you consider that most car engines put out less than 300 foot pounds of torque.

Rig SOME sort of forestay or use the main halyard as the safety catch or something - just don't go up with NO forward bracing.
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