the inevitable slow death of sailing journalism - does it matter - Page 6 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #51  
Old 02-28-2012
dennisonberwick's Avatar
Kuan Yin
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
dennisonberwick is on a distinguished road
Singing the praises of one sailing magazine

Good Old Boat in North America seems to be going from strength to strength. Even in the latest downturn their issues are about the same thickness, while their competitors are much slimmer. Presumably one of the differences is the business model.

Gold Old Boat is subscriber driven - and not dependent on aspirational advertising. A year or more I asked GOB why they didn't offer a digital edition and the reason given was that the magazine was subscriber sustained and a digital edition would only cannbalize their existing print run. Must say I do prefer the print version of sailing magazines. What would we do if noone could swop their old issues at each marina or club they call at?

And I'm not saying this just because they recently published an article by me about careening "Kuan Yin" on her beachlegs in Quebec on the St. Lawrence.

see here

fair winds,

Dennison
__________________
Currently retracing the voyage in 1811 of an Inuit family and two missionaries north along the coast of Labrador to Ungava Bay, in northern Canada.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #52  
Old 02-28-2012
Sailboat Reboot
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On Board
Posts: 325
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 14
svzephyr44 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to svzephyr44
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by beej67 View Post
Their task, in this brave new world of free information distribution, is to make their money through new means. The new means come in two flavors, that I've seen:

1) Run their own website themselves, with banner ads or google ads,
2) Accept money for touring / speaking


.
Thanks for the good post. I would like to add:

1. Mark Cuban pointed out that the reason that the music industry finally allowed digital music downloads was they saw an advantage of getting rid of what you call "the crap." The actual music that showed up on physical CD's in even the biggest music stores represented a small percentage of the publisher's catalog. The opportunity to make 100% of their catalog available to every potential buyer is what put them reluctantly in the game. They didn't predict that they would be disintermediated too.

2. There is always tension between those who want to be paid for their knowledge and those who are willing to give it away for free. I post frequently on marine electronics questions (without ads BTW.) I am sure that the companies who are trying to get paid to do marine electronics installs and debugs would love for me to go away. I don't distinguish between my "gift of time and knowledge" and the "gift" of a just met neighbor in a new port driving me to the store or winching me up my mast to fix something. Its called helping one another.

3. I find your comment about advertising interesting (I can't quite find the word I would like to use.) One of the big discontinuities of the web is that people like Google are making a lot of money "free riding" on the bricks and mortar companies (i.e. the telcoms who actually run the cables and routers.) Like your music example Google makes a lot of money on advertising while giving a pittance back to the people who are actually running the ads on their web sites. Your monthly payment for internet access is actually paying in some large part for Google to annoy you with their ads. Obviously the telcoms would like to keep more of this revenue stream, we will see how it works out. (One possibility of course would be for the telcoms to charge Google for every ad they render. Horrors! Of course this is exactly how it works in print and broadcast.)

4. One curious fact of the digital age is that the marginal cost for copies 2 to infinity of any product is near zero. When you remove the "crap factor" 99% of the cost of content is absorbed by the first copy. There are trivial incidental costs to keep the magnetic particles aligned properly on the spinning brown stuff and to agitate the electrons in the wires. In this world once someone has made the contribution of content it really does have a marginal cost of $ 0 for additional copies. This is, I believe, a unique and new product cost model.

5. The grim fact for most authors is that they are now in competition with people like me who are willing to share knowledge for free. As you point out in your example if you want to charge and I am willing to give the same product away I will get 100% of the market. Unless you can convince all of the "me's" to join the authorship club one or more of us is going to run you out of business.

A final aside - this thread beautifully represents the new age of publishing. We are all spending time which we value at zero to discuss a topic of interest - no letters to the editor etc. The intrinsic value is the enjoyment of the conversation and the warm feeling of contribution. This is a hard attitude to overcome.
FishSticks likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #53  
Old 02-28-2012
beej67's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
beej67 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
In a perfect theoretical world, maybe so but here in reality, things are a little different.

Keeping to food items for the purposes of discussion, my wife, a VERY astute shopper, has to shop at a minimum of 5 stores for our food in order to get the best price on everything. Just today, we were at the closest supermarket, where she is well known by the staff. The cashier said to her "don't you buy anything that isn't on sale?". The answer is basically NO. The different stores jerk around their pricing so much that if you buy 5 cent oranges at one, you'll pay twice as much as elsewhere for peanut butter or bread.

That's the reality of marketing - loss leaders, not "the lowest price". They are counting on you doing ALL your shopping with them for the convenience, once they have you inside.
This is exactly my point. On the internet, 5 stores are 5 clicks away. Or there's one click to Expedia who does those 5 clicks for you.

Now why would I pay money to three different sailing magazines (e.g. "shop for knowledge") when I don't even know what's going to be in the magazines, if all I want is a review to tell me which anchor to buy? What I'm looking for might not even be in any of them. And the lions share of the money I'm paying doesn't even go to the guy who tested the anchor, it goes to the company who translates that information into print and delivers it to me. Instead, I'll find someone who's tested the anchors I need on youtube, made a video, and stuck a 10 second commercial on the beginning of his youtube video. He gets a little money from the commercial, I watch the anchor review, no need for print media.
__________________
beej67, Checkered Past, 1980 32' Pearson 323, Panama City FL
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #54  
Old 02-28-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wayne, PA
Posts: 214
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Dfok is on a distinguished road
[QUOTE=beej67;837663]Most of your post is condescending and rude so I'm not going to bother with it, but the thing about profit margins is very important to understand.

I was aiming for jocular, not rude - guess I missed by a bit. I understand profit margins and the theory of a free and transparent marketplace, and think it works fine for selling oranges, books or airplane tickets. By extension it ought to work for "knowledge" as a product and some websites such a Lydia apparently do well selling specialized knowledge for various computer programs like photoshop.
Here is where the market gets less transparent. The product of sailing journalism and journalism in general is advertising, not information (other than Good Old Boat and a few others). Profits and investment go to the sales, the information is just there to keep the ads separated.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #55  
Old 02-28-2012
beej67's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 257
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
beej67 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfok View Post
Here is where the market gets less transparent. The product of sailing journalism and journalism in general is advertising, not information (other than Good Old Boat and a few others). Profits and investment go to the sales, the information is just there to keep the ads separated.
I completely disagree. And everyone who's dumping their cable TV for Hulu or bittorrent disagrees as well. The product is the thing I consume as the consumer. I do not consume the advertisement, I consume the information/entertainment.

And most of the revenues from the advertisement don't go to the person creating the information/entertainment anyway - they go to the people who run the delivery mechanism. (tv/magazine/music label)

What artists are discovering, is that they can use the internet to distribute their art (music/information/entertainment) directly to the end consumer who only wants to consume the art, for a tiny fraction of the cost that the user was paying the people who ran the delivery mechanism. This learning process is ongoing, and will completely change the face of media in the next ten years. Watch for it. It's happening all over the place, in the dark corners of the industry, and all this RIAA/SOPA/DCMA stuff is different reactions to the industry freaking out about losing their grip on the information distribution system.
__________________
beej67, Checkered Past, 1980 32' Pearson 323, Panama City FL
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #56  
Old 02-28-2012
JoeDiver's Avatar
SERIOUS SAILOR
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 483
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JoeDiver is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
.........

2. There is always tension between those who want to be paid for their knowledge and those who are willing to give it away for free. I post frequently on marine electronics questions (without ads BTW.) I am sure that the companies who are trying to get paid to do marine electronics installs and debugs would love for me to go away.

5. The grim fact for most authors is that they are now in competition with people like me who are willing to share knowledge for free........
Oh yeah, and they can be outright nasty about it too. On another forum several of us were trying to help a sailor with an issue, like all good forums do....when in jumps a certain person with their own subforum on the topic and a book published on the subject.....said person attacked us saying it was all bad advise, don't listen to it....buy my book.

Extremely bad form....and luckily it stopped with only one post....that's the sort of thing that would make me close my account and remove the bookmark.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

1982 Catalina 25 #2897
FK/SR/Traditional
Eagle Mountain Lake, Texas
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #57  
Old 02-28-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,820
Thanks: 6
Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts
Rep Power: 4
cupper3 is on a distinguished road
Forums and such are great for "crowd sourcing" knowledge and experience, and it develops a sense of community.

However, without the ability to pay reporters, there is very little ability to synthesize disjointed facts, especially for indepth articles.

It is those indepth articles (not just reviews), which forums and similar media have not yet been able to replicate satisfactorily.

That is not saying that forums, Twitter etc. can't play a role. The recent exposure of the Rocna saga is a perfect example. Rocna was high profile, but there are a myriad of other subjects that are worth of an indepth analysis (general topics, not just sailing related), that are not served yet by the internet model.

Maybe in time.
__________________


Why are people happy to accept science which makes their life easier while rejecting science that makes their faith or beliefs more difficult?

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #58  
Old 02-28-2012
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,340
Thanks: 55
Thanked 34 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 3
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
Thanks for the good post. I would like to add:

1. Mark Cuban pointed out that the reason that the music industry finally allowed digital music downloads was they saw an advantage of getting rid of what you call "the crap." The actual music that showed up on physical CD's in even the biggest music stores represented a small percentage of the publisher's catalog. The opportunity to make 100% of their catalog available to every potential buyer is what put them reluctantly in the game. They didn't predict that they would be disintermediated too.

2. There is always tension between those who want to be paid for their knowledge and those who are willing to give it away for free. I post frequently on marine electronics questions (without ads BTW.) I am sure that the companies who are trying to get paid to do marine electronics installs and debugs would love for me to go away. I don't distinguish between my "gift of time and knowledge" and the "gift" of a just met neighbor in a new port driving me to the store or winching me up my mast to fix something. Its called helping one another.

3. I find your comment about advertising interesting (I can't quite find the word I would like to use.) One of the big discontinuities of the web is that people like Google are making a lot of money "free riding" on the bricks and mortar companies (i.e. the telcoms who actually run the cables and routers.) Like your music example Google makes a lot of money on advertising while giving a pittance back to the people who are actually running the ads on their web sites. Your monthly payment for internet access is actually paying in some large part for Google to annoy you with their ads. Obviously the telcoms would like to keep more of this revenue stream, we will see how it works out. (One possibility of course would be for the telcoms to charge Google for every ad they render. Horrors! Of course this is exactly how it works in print and broadcast.)

4. One curious fact of the digital age is that the marginal cost for copies 2 to infinity of any product is near zero. When you remove the "crap factor" 99% of the cost of content is absorbed by the first copy. There are trivial incidental costs to keep the magnetic particles aligned properly on the spinning brown stuff and to agitate the electrons in the wires. In this world once someone has made the contribution of content it really does have a marginal cost of $ 0 for additional copies. This is, I believe, a unique and new product cost model.

5. The grim fact for most authors is that they are now in competition with people like me who are willing to share knowledge for free. As you point out in your example if you want to charge and I am willing to give the same product away I will get 100% of the market. Unless you can convince all of the "me's" to join the authorship club one or more of us is going to run you out of business.

A final aside - this thread beautifully represents the new age of publishing. We are all spending time which we value at zero to discuss a topic of interest - no letters to the editor etc. The intrinsic value is the enjoyment of the conversation and the warm feeling of contribution. This is a hard attitude to overcome.
IMHO, this post shows the best understanding of the current state of web publishing or info interchange - whatever you want to call it.

A few years back I read a forecast about the timeline for the "complete" integration of microcomputing, the web, all the computer revolution aspects we are discussing, as well as such things as computer controlled systems in cars, etc. etc. The person said they estimated that this revolution would be more or less completed or, rather, fully integrated by the mid-Twenties. I guess by then we'll know what has happened to sailing magazines, books, intellectual property rights etc.

Your comments about the zero cost of subsequent copies is spot on and the reason that Kindle downloads costing the same as a print copy is so outrageous. Outfits like Amazon have taken the costs associated with print production and moved them straight to the profit column without so much as a bone being tossed to the customer. They don't get a nickle from me and won't until they fix that particular bit of outrageous greed.

By the way SVZ, your reference to the "spinning brown stuff" dates you back with me in the G.O.D.'s of the computer industry - it's actually been "spinning SILVER stuff" for many years now.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken, opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #59  
Old 02-28-2012
dylanwinter1's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Oxford
Posts: 411
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 5
dylanwinter1 is on a distinguished road
correct in all aspects...almost anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by beej67 View Post
Most of your post is condescending and rude so I'm not going to bother with it, but the thing about profit margins is very important to understand.

In a perfectly transparent free market, whoever sells the same product for the least cost gets 100% of the market share. If you don't understand that, then you need to just stop while you're behind. If you're selling oranges for a dollar and I'm selling them for a nickel, 100% of people buy oranges from me, 0% from you. Unless your oranges are different from my oranges.

SO

Apply the internet to airline fares. Pre internet? $300 to buy a plane ticket. After Expedia.com? $69, and anyone who can't sell tickets for $69 goes out of business. Why? Because nobody goes to a travel agent anymore, they buy their tickets direct, and they shop for them with a few clicks. Travel agents were merely obscuring the marketplace. They were an additional barrier between the product and the consumer.

The first big tech bubble was all about people misunderstanding this concept. They threw all this money into online product delivery thinking it'd be the wave of the future, and it was, but for much slimmer margins than before, because any website can sell at the same cost as any other website can, so the profits are competed down to near zero. Margins. Internet. Welcome to it.

So the net result is we all get airline tickets for $69 and half the air carriers go bust. The same story is played out in every sector to one degree or another. Print media especially.

What is print media? Well traditionally, it's just a bunch of crap used to convey some information from point A, the origin, to point B, the consumer. Information could be news (newspaper) or entertainment (novels, comic books) or nudie pictures. But the nitwits at the head of the print media organizations thought people bought their magazines for the color paper they used, and the layout they presented. Hell no, they just wanted the information. (news/entertainment/porno)

So the internet is this fantastic way to transfer information without all the crap. It takes words out of the author's mouth and puts them in front of the eyeballs of the end user without having to murder a billion trees and squeeze them into paper and print them on giant presses and deliver them with trucks and planes and bicycles to the end user. It's pointless crap if you can get the information directly.

So 95% of the people complaining about their old media dying out are the folks in the industry who's jobs depended on the pointless crap. I've got one word for them: Cope. Long ago there was some honest businessman who made buggy whips, and when the car was invented he went out of business. He coped. Learn from his example. The other 5% complaining are the originators of the useful information, that we like to read. Their task, in this brave new world of free information distribution, is to make their money through new means. The new means come in two flavors, that I've seen:

1) Run their own website themselves, with banner ads or google ads,
2) Accept money for touring / speaking

The music industry is heavily in the throes of this transition right now, because all the end users have realized that they can get the music for free, and the artists have realized that they didn't make squat compared to what the labels made for distribution in the first place. Smart musicians are dumping their labels and becoming their own distributor, for much lower rates, and people are buying their product, cutting out the music industry's version of the 'crap.' Dumb musicians are still hitched to a label crying about making less money now.

New world, welcome to it. You've got two options, adapt or die, and I don't really care which one you pick. They can etch "refused to adapt and made everyone around him miserable for it" on your tombstone if you want. I'm sure your grandkids would get a chuckle out of that.

Now, back to Mr. Dylan Winter's problem. Nobody wants to pay him directly for his information. Well okay, he should learn how Google Ads works, put them on his website, and foster a community around it to generate traffic. Write something into his contracts with other publications that he is allowed to distribute copies of the article a month after it's released on his website, and do it for free. People will appreciate that, and will sign up for a mailing list for when new articles are out. That further develops the community. Use that community to book more speaking gigs, which of course would be paid. Etc.


you are completely correct - and to some extent search engines are replacing magazines. You would look at a magazine because it was a collection of information that was relevant to you - truck magazines for truck enthusiasts, sailing mags for sailors and porn for everyone else.

Now the search engines can do that for you - provided you take the time to learn how to use one. The search engines will collate information for you.

I agree that the person who took the time to work on a subject (let us call him or her a journalist) and boil it down to a few thousand well written typo free words with well shot illustrations only got a tiny percentage of the advertising or subscription money.

I make truck dvds and get ten per cent of the retail price

I have written two books for the BBC - they paid me around £100 a thousand to write them plus ten per cent of the book sales. They sold 10,000 copies of each book so my advance was the totla income. They then sold the books onto reader's digest along with my images for around £15,000 for each book - my share of that deal was £56. The BBC also got a percentage of the sales - I got nowt.

but that was in the past when there was money in the system.

Your point about adsense is excellent and it is a subject about which I now know something.

I have a youtube space about trucks - 24 million hits worth $1 per thousand

my sailing space gets around 300,000 hits a year - woth $1 per thousand

as a rational video maker am I going to concentrate my time on making truck films or sailing films.... well obviously I am a crazy man and make both - sailing films at a loss because I love it and make truck films for money

The truck films on you tube were bringing in around £800 a month. My best day ever, during a snowstorm in North America I got 175,000 hits in one day.

good money - althugh ots of blokes on here would starve if all they earned was $175 a day.


so that £800 a month is still not enough to live off - but it helped


my best hitting sailing films do around 5,000 a year ....$5

so I started a website about my journey and shifted the films to a server accessed by a subscription of £4.99 a quarter

- subscriptions peaked at around 700 people paying me $4.99 a quarter.

Not bad money - but still not enough to cover the time and effort and server costs - video is stupidly expensive to serve - my website costs were around £100 a month

Of course my sailing films may be much worse than my truck films

I also put an adsense block on the sailing website - that was earning me about £80 a month - I was telling my sailors how I was financing my journey with subs and adverts and some of them started clicking on the adverts to help me out - google calls it click fraude. This broke a google algorhythm and my account was closed - both on youtube and my website.

I did appeal but there is no redemtption in the world of google.

but even if it had been going swimmingly the sailing films would still not earn enough from the advertising revenue to cover my costs

some people started asking for dvds, so I burned a few and they have started selling at around 25 a week. 50 a week in the run up to christmas

if I pack them into jiffy bags myself, wite the labels etc they cost me around £5 for each double disk set - which I sell for £15/ The American ones are packed by a sailing friend in Illinois - he gets 50 per cent of the cover price of $25 for a four hour double disk set

my truck DVDs are copied and sold by a specialist company who commiisioned the flms - I get ten per cent of the cover price - they sell around 5,000 disks a year.

Server costs for the sailing films were rising and the subscriber numbers were down to around 500 - you have to feed subscribers with a film a week otherwise they go away. Making a film a week is a full time job. Meantime server costs were still ticking in at around £100 a month

I am slowly putting all my sailing films onto you tube and Blip and making them available for free - website traffic is rising every month - currently around 3,000 films viewed a day across youtube and blip

people who want to download the HD still pay a subscription

we shall see if it works....

meanwhile the trucking films on youtube rattle along - smetimes 100,000 a day - youtube gets the advertising revenue as I am guilty of click fraude


Four years into the ktl project I now sail four days a month instead of eight because the KTL income is not enough to cover the costs of spending half my time working on KTL. Time spent on it has fallen to around a quarter of my time. I have children at universiity and a mortgage to pay. Truck films feed the family - sailing films do not.

I will continue with the journey - but I now need to think about every tank of petrol I invest in getting to the boat.


So you are dead right. Advertising will pay. But it will only pay for a mass market product stuff such as trucks or porn - but minority subjects, such as sailing or skateboards will be left to the enthusiastic amatuer or the deranged professional.

The web will supply information from forums and whimsy from bloggers, maybe the odd well made amatuer youtube film - but that will be about it.
You might get the odd pro film sponsored by champagne or watch manufacturers who want to get access to the uberrich but if you sailors of 30 footers think you are worth reaching by paying for content and especially if you are a a cruising sailor you can go whistle

if you want to read the KTL youtube saga it is here

Duckworks - All boat design is a compromise - Rubbish

It was my fault for not reading the 20,000 word adsense contract and also letting my enthusiastic website community anywhere anywhere near an adsense block. So if you are hoping that adsense willl support your sailing hobby with a supply of good free journalism - as words, images or video

I doubt itl. Trucks, cars, football, porn... no probs.

sailors do not pay for speakers either..because lots of people yak for freemans - blokes from Raymarine or International will come to speak to your club

Right now my project is being supported by old blokes who still buy DVDs.

I assume that, like me, they are a dying breed.

Dylan
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by dylanwinter1; 02-28-2012 at 02:34 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #60  
Old 02-28-2012
Sailboat Reboot
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On Board
Posts: 325
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 14
svzephyr44 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to svzephyr44
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
By the way SVZ, your reference to the "spinning brown stuff" dates you back with me in the G.O.D.'s of the computer industry - it's actually been "spinning SILVER stuff" for many years now.
Thanks for the flowers. The "spinning brown stuff" may be silver these days, but that doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. After all, most of the stuff on the spinning stuff is brown. Read the politics section of any web forum (LOL)

I bet you worked with POTS too!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Md. Sailing Hall of Fame says fundraising slow NewsReader News Feeds 0 12-12-2011 02:50 PM
Slow sailing for 23 boats (The Herald-Tribune) NewsReader News Feeds 0 10-08-2006 07:15 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012