All US Diesel for boats is red? - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 03-06-2012
just ducky
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 950
Thanks: 4
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Don0190 is on a distinguished road
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

I feel the point isn't about red/blue/green or whatever; and why they are colored to start with. The issue is that there not standards and if countries are going to check in order to determine you are using their color you are screwed!

Last edited by Don0190; 03-06-2012 at 07:04 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 03-06-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

BIG disCUSSion on the Jeanneau-owners site re the red fuel. Seems like US, Canada, UK sell red dyed diesel when no road tax's are paid. Meanwhile, Netherlands is fining folks BIG time for any trace of red dye in the fuel system. Really bad for those in the UK, as no clear/green/blue'ish diesel is sold at the marina's. So for me, If i took off for europe from where I am, I'm in deep shista trouble! As my marina only sells red dyed diesel, due to no road taxes being paid! Which for the boat, bobcat, trackhoe that I have that are diesel, I do not need to pay.

IIRC, the issue in Europe, is whether or not VAT?!?! has been paid? I would hope, that being from somewhere other than Europe, while I would assume I am needing to pay VAT when I use something like fuel over their, the fuel I buy here would not have it, if they want the VAT for the fuel I bought over here, I should just have to pay the appropriate dollar (for lack of better currency useage) and be done with it. In the UK, they sell the red diesel WITH the proper VAT paid.......their are some issues over that way re all this.

Marty
Yes Marty that is about it.

If I was on an English forum I would be flamed by what I am going to say:

In EC there are common rules and one of them respects to tax on fuels. In the same country you have to have the same tax for everybody with some very few and very clear exceptions, mostly for agriculture use. This has to do with not permitting commercial advantages indirectly subsidizing sector markets trough cheap fuel.

The British have been escaping the rule in what regards boating, namely pleasure boating and they are allowed to use on boats non taxed diesel (that contrary to normal diesel is dyed). They have been given moratorium to comply with the general rule but they always find a pretest not to.

So I guess now everybody (all other countries) are so pissed with them that no matter what, if they found any residue of dyed (no taxed) diesel on your boat you are taxed and you are taxed because no matter what you should never had any non taxed diesel in your boat.

The color of the diesel, if dyed does not matter; it indicates that it is no taxed diesel. Normal diesel is clear.

All other countries consider that the British are breaking the law so even if you come from UK, where you have only red diesel for boats, you are taxed anyway. You should know the law and now that red diesel is no taxed and can only be used on agriculture.

I have asked if on the US normally dyed (non taxed fuel) is used on boats because on that British article they lie saying:

"Red-dyed fuel in the U.S. is reserved for off-road uses such as marine and farm equipment. It indicates that federal road taxes were not paid, but it is not duty-free. Some yachts will pay state sales tax on their fuel, though yachts leaving the country can sign an affidavit to that effect and avoid state sales taxes. Whether sales taxes have been paid or not, all marine fuel sold in the United States is dyed red."

I just wanted to be sure of that and warning you folks that if coming to Europe you can be victims of this “war” if not knowing about it.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 03-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 864
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Ulladh is on a distinguished road
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

Illegal activity around the agricultural/consumer diesel price differential has lead to an underground market for bleached agri-diesel in Northern Ireland.

BBC NEWS | UK | Northern Ireland | Old enemies smuggle fuel together

The criminal gangs then dump the waste chemicals in storm drains and rivers.
__________________
1970 Havsfidra 20 by Fisksatra
On the Delaware River at Fox Grove Marina Essington PA
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 03-06-2012
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

The issue as stated, is it takes MANY tanks of fuel to remove the red dye. Hence how in some area's of the states, people will think they can save 30-40 cents per gallon putting home fuel oil in a vehicle, or off road fuel, and the dye stays there for quite some time. Both in the tank, filter, exhaust etc. Fine here is something like $1000 per gal of tank you have, similar to the European law stated in the article. If caught a 2nd or 3 rd time the amount goes up to something in the $10-20K per gal range. Not worth it for a car, truck etc that drives on the roads.

For my bobcat, trackhoe etc. It can to a degree be worth it. But for where I live, the only real easy place to fill with non rad taxed diesel is the marina. And it frankly is about on par or slightly more than the stations up the road. So with a 7 gal tank in my boat, sometimes it is easier to fill a 5 gal jug when filling my pickup or dumptruck and take to the boat. If away from my marina, then I use that marina's fuel, and it will be red.

I also noticed in the article, that the two boats in question filled here in the states! Fines reduced etc, BUT, it took quite the record keeping to keep the fines down, reduced etc. Not sure some of us with 20-30 gal tanks would keep that level of record keeping, including a sample of the fuel etc. I know I do not. Then again, I do not have the same issue here vs over their!

If anyone went to the link I have, you can see the comments between folks of different countries. Plain "joe's" if you will like us here, and not liking what is going on at the government level! sounds like any country, state, county, city, HOA equal thru out the world eh!

marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 03-06-2012
johnnyquest37's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 396
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
johnnyquest37 is on a distinguished road
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

Read about skippers of megayachts being diligent about logging re-fueling details and storing a sample everytime they take on fuel. That way, if there is some dispute about what taxes may or may not have been paid, at least the skipper has a sample of the fuel to show the tax-man. Might be a good idea for anyone expecting to go through customs.
__________________
[/B]S/V Wind Orchid
Catalina 350 (hull# 273)
Annapolis, MD

LET'S GET SERIOUS ABOUT REMOVING POLITCAL TAG LINES -- NOW!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 03-06-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,281
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Rockter will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

PCP :

The British have been escaping the rule in what regards boating, namely pleasure boating and they are allowed to use on boats non taxed diesel (that contrary to normal diesel is dyed). They have been given moratorium to comply with the general rule but they always find a pretest not to.

So I guess now everybody (all other countries) are so pissed with them that no matter what, if they found any residue of dyed (no taxed) diesel on your boat you are taxed and you are taxed because no matter what you should never had any non taxed diesel in your boat.

The color of the diesel, if dyed does not matter; it indicates that it is no taxed diesel. Normal diesel is clear.

All other countries consider that the British are breaking the law so even if you come from UK, where you have only red diesel for boats, you are taxed anyway. You should know the law and now that red diesel is no taxed and can only be used on agriculture.


PCP, my friend, you are about 3 years behind the times.

The British have to pay full road duty on all diesel used for propulsion on all recreational boats. We are permitted some tax relief if the fuel is used for heating.

When we buy diesel for our boats, we have to pay full road taxes on the fuel we use for propulsion, and that is true whether the fuel is sold to us a red diesel, or the clear stuff that you can buy in the garage forecourt (currently about £1.45 a litre, close to $9 per US gal).

There was even talk of all recreational boats having to use clear diesel, but around these British Isles, there were very few places that we could hope to refuel with clear diesel. So just imagine that on the West Coast of Scotland (and some of it is remote) that you cannot get clear diesel for your boat, and your vessel would be siezed the moment any red diesel was discovered in the tanks. On that basis, we were allowed to use red diesel as long as we paid the propulsion taxes on it.

So if tax-hungry Germans want to play hard-ball with foreign-flagged boats, then let's not blame the British so much, shall we?

Rockter (British).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 03-06-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockter View Post
PCP, my friend, you are about 3 years behind the times.

The British have to pay full road duty on all diesel used for propulsion on all recreational boats. We are permitted some tax relief if the fuel is used for heating.

When we buy diesel for our boats, we have to pay full road taxes on the fuel we use for propulsion, and that is true whether the fuel is sold to us a red diesel, or the clear stuff that you can buy in the garage forecourt (currently about £1.45 a litre, close to $9 per US gal).

There was even talk of all recreational boats having to use clear diesel, but around these British Isles, there were very few places that we could hope to refuel with clear diesel. So just imagine that on the West Coast of Scotland (and some of it is remote) that you cannot get clear diesel for your boat, and your vessel would be siezed the moment any red diesel was discovered in the tanks. On that basis, we were allowed to use red diesel as long as we paid the propulsion taxes on it.

So if tax-hungry Germans want to play hard-ball with foreign-flagged boats, then let's not blame the British so much, shall we?

Rockter (British).
So let me see if I understand: The British pay regular taxes on diesel and use in the boats dyed diesel that means internationally that diesel had not paid tax?

If the boats use red dyed diesel how the well now the British authorities that the boats are not using red dyed diesel that had not paid tax? I mean the one used on farming and I think also in fishing boats? That is absolutely impossible to control and probably is not controlled.

The problem you refer regarding clear fuel accessibility is the same problem all European countries have and all use clear fuel on the pleasure crafts. There is no other way to prevent the use of cheaper non taxed fuel on pleasure boats.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 03-07-2012
Sailboat Reboot
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On Board
Posts: 493
Thanks: 3
Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
Rep Power: 15
svzephyr44 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to svzephyr44
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

OK - I will share my personal experience. In the US marine fuel is dyed red. In Canada red dyed fuel is subsidized for fishing boats and having red dyed fuel in your tanks is illegal. In Mexico (I think, but maybe it was Guatemala) fuel is dyed blue. Somewhere along the line I got green fuel also. In all of those places no one ever bothered to question my 40 gallon fuel tank or my 15 gallons of fuel on the deck. Consider that it is impossible to leave the US with marine fuel (red) and arrive in Canada with marine fuel (clear.)

My take is that there is money to be made in mega-yachts that take on $30,000 worth of fuel each time they refuel although I don't know how they would cheat (you can't stop in the next gas station.) My experience with customs etc. people in various countries is that if you are nice they are nice. If you are not nice they are not nice. Also in most countries marine diesel at the dock is more expensive per gallon than going to a gas (diesel) station in town. Again, maybe there are places and/or countries that are trying to drive cruisers away (more than just the typical dock master scams and hands out.) But I have not personally had anyone care about the fuel on my sailboat.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 03-07-2012
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 99 Times in 82 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
OK - I will share my personal experience. In the US marine fuel is dyed red. ...
Well that was my question and judging for most answers, the marine fuel in the US is not red, or I am missing something

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 03-07-2012
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,762
Thanks: 0
Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: All US Diesel for boats is red?

paulo,

Diesel found in marina's will be generally speaking red. Go to a station to fill your diesel car./truck etc, and it will be clear'ish to green. Red meaning that the road tax has not been paid! Sales tax/vat equal, should and would have been paid.

marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rough weather seperates real boats from bad boats... sailguy40 General Discussion (sailing related) 28 11-02-2011 01:51 PM
Diesel fuel lines -Universal 3cyl diesel argofred Diesel 8 04-18-2011 04:39 PM
Universal diesel Kobuta oil filter is a Fram PH3593A looking for diesel fuel filter dave hirsh Diesel 4 06-07-2010 10:01 AM
Auto Diesel vs Marine Diesel / Addatives NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 07-11-2007 07:15 PM
Ultra low sulphur diesel and the older marine diesel Valiente Gear & Maintenance 2 10-20-2006 01:10 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:50 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.