Solent Inner Stay - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 75 Old 03-12-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Apprently you did not read my OP question. I did not ask how to tension the Solent, I asked how much tenstion. Always surprises me how people get off the OP on sailnet.
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Uhhh, actually, you did...

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Do you have a Solent Stay? I am looking at installing one.

Curious as to how you tension the Solent stay when in use. When not in use my forestay would have 2,500 lbs tension. When in use what should the tension of the Solent stay be? Whould the Solent and forestay share the 2,500 lb load equally of a percentage of the load?
Regards
At the risk of further straying off-topic, I'll mention that I'm not a big fan of Highfield levers - at least the sort pictured in the link posted above... IMHO, they can be a bit dangerous to fiddle with when under load, and with most I've seen have no way to adjust the tension once locked in place... I friend of a friend lost an eye about a decade ago in a very grisly accident while attempting to release a Hyfield lever under load...

I think the pelican hook adjusters like those from Wichard are definitely the way to go for a removable inner stay. I have the one that uses a wheel to tension, their other version uses a ratcheting handle... Very slick pieces of gear, more expensive than a Hyfield lever, but well worth it, IMHO...

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post #12 of 75 Old 03-12-2012 Thread Starter
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Uhhh, actually, you did...



At the risk of further straying off-topic, I'll mention that I'm not a big fan of Highfield levers - at least the sort pictured in the link posted above... IMHO, they can be a bit dangerous to fiddle with when under load, and with most I've seen have no way to adjust the tension once locked in place... I friend of a friend lost an eye about a decade ago in a very grisly accident while attempting to release a Hyfield lever under load...

I think the pelican hook adjusters like those from Wichard are definitely the way to go for a removable inner stay. I have the one that uses a wheel to tension, their other version uses a ratcheting handle... Very slick pieces of gear, more expensive than a Hyfield lever, but well worth it, IMHO...

My OP was not asking what gear do you use to tension the solent stay. It is asking what percentage of load should be shared between the forestay and the solent stay. It is not a gear question. You take the question "how do you tenstion" out of context. Need to read the op fully.

Here it is:
"Do you have a Solent Stay? I am looking at installing one.

Curious as to how you tension the Solent stay when in use. When not in use my forestay would have 2,500 lbs tension. When in use what should the tension of the Solent stay be? Whould the Solent and forestay share the 2,500 lb load equally of a percentage of the load?
Regards"

Note the post is directed to sailors whom actually have a Solent stay. So presumeably have some experience applying tension.

Thanks though for the input on the tension device, I will plan on a wheel.
Regards

Last edited by casey1999; 03-12-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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post #13 of 75 Old 03-12-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

You sound a wee bit angry.

My designs account for more cutters than any other living designer. I know boats with two forestays. I have been sailing them for the last 38 years. But never mind. If you are the kind of sailor who tunes his rig with a tensionometer then I don't think we would get along.

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Last edited by bobperry; 03-12-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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post #14 of 75 Old 03-12-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Casey,

Threads drift. Nature of the game, may not be a perfect situation but it is the situation. You see, in case you havn't quite noticed, not everybody goes back and reads entire threads. They simply react to latest posts. Frustrating perhaps but nowt can done about it. If people post something that is not to your liking the idea is to pass on over said post and go on about your business.

Ask a question re baking a duck and you are bound to end up discussing watercourses.


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“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett.
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post #15 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post

So presumeably have some experience applying tension.
(Click here) for a Wikipedia article on the guy your insulting. I think he knows a bit more about the subject than most.


I'm installing a Solent stay this spring using the Wichard backstay adjuster (same as the baby stay, but without the pelican hook), the dual padeyes on deck, a Wichard 9150 mast tang, and an Amsteel stay. I was concerned about tension on the forestay, but after talking to a few people with them like Evans Starzinger, have found out that it was more than enough.

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post #16 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

I did go back and read all the posts in the thread.

The OP has posted a bunch of times. He says he wants a Solent stay. He also says he plans to use it for a hand-on storm jib. I don't think that makes sense. You'd like the storm sail to have a CE low and near longitudinal center. A Solent stay keeps the sail forward. I know the OP said he doesn't want running backstays, but an inner forestay with a lower head and further aft tack along with runners makes the most sense for what the OP wants to accomplish.

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post #17 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
When in use what should the tension of the Solent stay be?
The 'practical/technical' sailing answer is: the tension should be that whatever required to keep the curved leading edge luff shape of the sail to the designed curve (called luff hollow) that the sailmaker cut into the sail.
A sailmaker will typically cut headsails expecting that the wire is typically at approx. 15% ultimate strength tension for sailing in winds at approx. 15kts.; this 15% tension yields a fairly predictable wire 'sag' at those conditions. If the 'sag' in the wire doesnt approximately 'match' the 'hollow' in the leading edge ... you will have worse than piss poor pointing ability and upwind sailing characteristics; downwind well below a beam reach doesnt matter.
If the wind increases or decreases, a 'tech' sailor will change the headstay tension (via changing backstay, etc. tension) up or down so that the curve in the leading edge is restored back to 'as designed' shape ... or the boat will point like a pig, heel over aggressively, and can start aggressively skidding off to leeward.

Adding anyother additional stay in front of the mast will radically complicate matters --- "dynamic load sharing" of the 2 stays, where the stay that has a sail flying will unload into the stay that doesnt have a sail flying ... and the flying sail will be on a reduced tensioned and 'over-sagged off to leeward' stay.

How do I tension? If beating with the 'forward sail' flying, I manually unload tension in the 'inner' stay by whatever it takes and amount until I SEE that the sail flying on the headstay has the correct forward shape in those specific wind/waves/amount of heel conditions. I then adjust backstay tension and/or apply running backstay tension .... all dependent of the shape of the sail and amount of 'sag' in the wire to match that leading edge shape of the sail. Since the conditions are non-constant and 'dynamic', there isnt any 'tension number' to give you.
For a solent rig, the above is ass backwards as normally you want the inner stay to be the pointing sail on the tightest stay and the 'outer' (more loose) stay to carry the downwind sail ... all ass backwards due to the structural geometries, rigging 'elasticity', etc. I wouldnt have a solent rigged boat for that reason, I sail a cutter rig and I can easily get that 'headstay' as tight as needed.


Quote:
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Whould the Solent and forestay share the 2,500 lb load equally of a percentage of the load?
Only when sitting at a dock with the sails furled !!!!!! Otherwise in dynamic conditions those two forwards stays will be 'dynamically variable' and depending on the amount of sq. ft. of sail being flown. If both stays are sharing the original 2,500# load ... then BOTH sails will have to be recut for 15% / 2 average luff wire tension = 7.5% !!!!! ... and expect the mast top to be 'wandering' and 'swaying'.

Some distance sailors will determine (measure) the average tension in average conditions in the flown upwind sail's stay ... and then simply have a new and 'deeper' luff curve cut into the sail to match the 'average' resultant tension.

Strength of materials (service life) consideration: If you double the amount of wire in front of the mast, and dont have a means to structurally double the reaction loads by backstay (now having to operate at TWICE its design load), etc., you risk accelerated 'fatigue failure' of all wire 'aft' of the mast ... all due to that 'extra' forward stay, unless one has a safe means to UNLOAD one of the forward stays - IMO.
Hint: dont expect a single OEM design backstay to last very long when adding a 'solent stay' when youre applying high backstay loads to keep 'good' headsail shape. Stainless steel rigging has a fatigue endurance limit of only ~30,000 psi or about 30% tension, and if the loads are above this approx. value, you only get ~1 million 'load cycles' before the rig 'embrittles' and fails from 'fatigue'; .... keep the loads 'under' 30% and you get a very looooong service life out of stainless.

Static rigging loads ... only a 'starting point' for 'how much tension'. One has to remember that the forestay 'sag' (tension) is what establishes the all important SHAPE of the 'headsails' in varying wind and seastate conditions.
A better explanation of 'matching forestay sag to the leading edge curve': http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFil...f%20Hollow.pdf

Lastly, listen to that grumpy Bob Perry fellow; he DOES know what he's talking about ... I have one of his boats and when I back-calculate his work, I usually state out loud - 'holy ****, thats amazing'! :-)
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post #18 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Tensioning the stays is needed to keep them as stable as possible when there is a load from the wind on the sails. Therefore both stays should be tensioned 10 - 15% of their strengths or you can tension the one in use and leave the other one slack but this will require retensioning every time you plan to change sails which is not is very easy when you nedd to reef.
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post #19 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

RichH:
Thanks for the kind words. I was trying to be helpful. I do not think the thread strayed.

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post #20 of 75 Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
For a solent rig, the above is ass backwards as normally you want the inner stay to be the pointing sail on the tightest stay and the 'outer' (more loose) stay to carry the downwind sail ... all ass backwards due to the structural geometries, rigging 'elasticity', etc. I wouldnt have a solent rigged boat for that reason, I sail a cutter rig and I can easily get that 'headstay' as tight as needed.
Absolutely correct for an as-designed Solent rig with a 90 - 110 sail on the inner stay and a big genoa on the forward stay. The OP is talking about using the inner stay as a storm sail stay. That just doesn't make sense to me. With the "most of the time" sail forward tacking will be a bear and he won't get what he wants from a storm foresail too far forward.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

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