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  #21  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

I think that is why the OP is interested in having the Solent stay be removable.
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  #22  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
You sound a wee bit angry.

My designs account for more cutters than any other living designer. I know boats with two forestays. I have been sailing them for the last 38 years. But never mind. If you are the kind of sailor who tunes his rig with a tensionometer then I don't think we would get along.
Bob, did not mean to offend you. I apologize that you took it that way.
Fair winds
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  #23  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think that is why the OP is interested in having the Solent stay be removable.
Correct. Solent would only be connected for use with a storm jib, or in the case of furler failure or forestay failure.
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  #24  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

A bit of a nit pick, perhaps, but I suspect it's unlikely you'd have time to connect and tension your solent in the event of a 'forestay failure' per se...
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  #25  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
The 'practical/technical' sailing answer is: the tension should be that whatever required to keep the curved leading edge luff shape of the sail to the designed curve (called luff hollow) that the sailmaker cut into the sail.
A sailmaker will typically cut headsails expecting that the wire is typically at approx. 15% ultimate strength tension for sailing in winds at approx. 15kts.; this 15% tension yields a fairly predictable wire 'sag' at those conditions. If the 'sag' in the wire doesnt approximately 'match' the 'hollow' in the leading edge ... you will have worse than piss poor pointing ability and upwind sailing characteristics; downwind well below a beam reach doesnt matter.
If the wind increases or decreases, a 'tech' sailor will change the headstay tension (via changing backstay, etc. tension) up or down so that the curve in the leading edge is restored back to 'as designed' shape ... or the boat will point like a pig, heel over aggressively, and can start aggressively skidding off to leeward.

Adding anyother additional stay in front of the mast will radically complicate matters --- "dynamic load sharing" of the 2 stays, where the stay that has a sail flying will unload into the stay that doesnt have a sail flying ... and the flying sail will be on a reduced tensioned and 'over-sagged off to leeward' stay.

How do I tension? If beating with the 'forward sail' flying, I manually unload tension in the 'inner' stay by whatever it takes and amount until I SEE that the sail flying on the headstay has the correct forward shape in those specific wind/waves/amount of heel conditions. I then adjust backstay tension and/or apply running backstay tension .... all dependent of the shape of the sail and amount of 'sag' in the wire to match that leading edge shape of the sail. Since the conditions are non-constant and 'dynamic', there isnt any 'tension number' to give you.
For a solent rig, the above is ass backwards as normally you want the inner stay to be the pointing sail on the tightest stay and the 'outer' (more loose) stay to carry the downwind sail ... all ass backwards due to the structural geometries, rigging 'elasticity', etc. I wouldnt have a solent rigged boat for that reason, I sail a cutter rig and I can easily get that 'headstay' as tight as needed.



Only when sitting at a dock with the sails furled !!!!!! Otherwise in dynamic conditions those two forwards stays will be 'dynamically variable' and depending on the amount of sq. ft. of sail being flown. If both stays are sharing the original 2,500# load ... then BOTH sails will have to be recut for 15% / 2 average luff wire tension = 7.5% !!!!! ... and expect the mast top to be 'wandering' and 'swaying'.

Some distance sailors will determine (measure) the average tension in average conditions in the flown upwind sail's stay ... and then simply have a new and 'deeper' luff curve cut into the sail to match the 'average' resultant tension.

Strength of materials (service life) consideration: If you double the amount of wire in front of the mast, and dont have a means to structurally double the reaction loads by backstay (now having to operate at TWICE its design load), etc., you risk accelerated 'fatigue failure' of all wire 'aft' of the mast ... all due to that 'extra' forward stay, unless one has a safe means to UNLOAD one of the forward stays - IMO.
Hint: dont expect a single OEM design backstay to last very long when adding a 'solent stay' when youre applying high backstay loads to keep 'good' headsail shape. Stainless steel rigging has a fatigue endurance limit of only ~30,000 psi or about 30% tension, and if the loads are above this approx. value, you only get ~1 million 'load cycles' before the rig 'embrittles' and fails from 'fatigue'; .... keep the loads 'under' 30% and you get a very looooong service life out of stainless.

Static rigging loads ... only a 'starting point' for 'how much tension'. One has to remember that the forestay 'sag' (tension) is what establishes the all important SHAPE of the 'headsails' in varying wind and seastate conditions.
A better explanation of 'matching forestay sag to the leading edge curve': http://www.ftp.tognews.com/GoogleFil...f%20Hollow.pdf

Lastly, listen to that grumpy Bob Perry fellow; he DOES know what he's talking about ... I have one of his boats and when I back-calculate his work, I usually state out loud - 'holy ****, thats amazing'! :-)
Rich,
This is some very good information. That is what I was concerned about. The Solent stay was to be added to provide a safety back up in case of failure of the forestay, and also a means to attach a hanked on storm sail. But the Solent stay may actually lead to failure of the forestay or other rig parts. But apparently the Solent stays are very popular in Europe- and rigs do not seem to fail using them, so I am confused.

Do you have a S-N diagram for stainless steel? showing the 30,000 psi fatigue limit?
Regards

Last edited by casey1999; 03-13-2012 at 02:36 PM.
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
A bit of a nit pick, perhaps, but I suspect it's unlikely you'd have time to connect and tension your solent in the event of a 'forestay failure' per se...
That is a good question. If you loose a forestay on a mast head rig with fore and aft lowers (I also have a baby stay- too close to mast to hank on a jib however), will the mast fall down. Or do you have enough time to try to stabilize the mast with a halyard?
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Correct. Solent would only be connected for use with a storm jib, or in the case of furler failure or forestay failure.
You could do that with a spinnaker or secondary jib halyard made with ultra strong high tech polymer line (Amsteel, etc.), a radically 'beefed up' sheave and sheave support and beefed-up spinn halyard 'mast crane', etc. ... and have the ability to easily adjust tension with a mast mounted winch, etc. This would be similar to the old style stay tensioning systems that appeared on early IPs but ultimately failed because of fatigue, etc. failure due to wire being 'turned' (bent) over the sheave ... a high tech polymer line wouldnt have the problem in being turned around a proper sized sheeve. ... just thinking out of the box. All the components and supporting structure would have to be carefully calculated and applied with sufficient 'safety factor' (greater than 3:1 or higher).
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Last edited by RichH; 03-13-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Correct. Solent would only be connected for use with a storm jib, or in the case of furler failure or forestay failure.
Too late. If you're heading offshore with the plan to rig a removable stay and hank on a storm sail when you need it you are acting way too late. Been there, done that, really sucks.
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  #29  
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
That is a good question. If you loose a forestay on a mast head rig with fore and aft lowers (I also have a baby stay- too close to mast to hank on a jib however), will the mast fall down. Or do you have enough time to try to stabilize the mast with a halyard?
That would depend on the point of sail, the length of unsupported spar, the mast section itself and your reaction speed to bear off and run downwind to alleviate the loads...

I've never lost a forestay, but I lost a cap shroud once and there was no time to react, the mast folding at the spreaders was my first hint that things had gone badly.

I lost a lower diagonal on a double spreader rig but we managed to tack before any damage was done.. though the mast had a nasty S in it until we addressed the imbalance.

Sailing someone else's boat one day I was lucky enough to notice a chainplate slowly pulling out of the deck immediately after a tack, we were able to tack back quickly enough to save the rig.. the chain plate had pulled about 1 1/2 " out of the deck (mushy bulkhead) in a few seconds....
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  #30  
Old 03-13-2012
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Re: Solent Inner Stay

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Rich,
This is some very good information. That is what I was concerned about. The Solent stay was to be added to provide a safety back up in case of failure of the forestay, and also a means to attach a hanked on storm sail. But the Solent stay may actually lead to failure of the forestay or other rig parts. But apparently the Solent stays are very popular in Europe- and rigs do not seem to fail using them, so I am confused.

Do you have a S-N diagram for stainless steel? showing the 30,000 psi fatigue limit?
Regards

Brion Toss' site has a lot of good information about the solent stay. Also, you can contact your spar manufacturer for their recommendation. Our boat is rigged with Hall Spar's mast and besides going with different brands than what they offer (due to cost), our solent will be rigged like their suggestion.
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