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  #21  
Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by Waltthesalt View Post
I’m perplexed on the issue of hybrid power on boats. Having spent time with diesel electric I know that compared to direct drive, there’s a big loss of efficiency converting power mechanical-electric-mechanical. ....
So I don’t, given the added system complexity and battery needs see the reason for hybrids as auxiliaries on sailboats.
I don't know if you are right about efficiency but on the England Barges that use this system the economy in fuel is about 25% and they get free electrical energy. I mean if they had not the system they would have to run a generator and that would increase the consumption even more.

This is not a typical diesel electric system, at least not as in almost all big ships. On this one you work with the diesel in a normal way till you have the batteries full, then you can profit from the electrical engine. If I remember right, for each 2 hours of diesel running you get 1 hour of electrical propulsion…but not with the same speed.

Regarding sailboats when the boat is sailing the propeller spinning recharges the batteries. I want a hydro generator for my boat, it is by far the most efficient way to get clean energy on a boat. A good one costs between 3000 and 4000 € In this case they “offer” you one with the system.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-29-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

Walt,

Unless I'm missing something, this system is capable of direct drive operation.

If I had the need to repower, I would certainly look into a hybrid system. I like the idea, even though it may not pay for itself in the long run. I like toys.

Paul
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  #23  
Old 03-29-2012
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Regarding sailboats when the boat is sailing the propeller spinning recharges the batteries. I want a hydro generator for my boat, it is by far the most efficient way to get clean energy on a boat.
.. but it wouldn't work with feathering/folding props would it? Some of us have spent a fair chunk of coin on such things..

It's an interesting idea.. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is? It's a pretty bulky package overall and most engine spaces nowadays won't have much extra space. For the average 2-3 cyl diesel it doesn't look like a reasonable fit.
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  #24  
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
.. but it wouldn't work with feathering/folding props would it? Some of us have spent a fair chunk of coin on such things..

It's an interesting idea.. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is? It's a pretty bulky package overall and most engine spaces nowadays won't have much extra space. For the average 2-3 cyl diesel it doesn't look like a reasonable fit.
Yes, on this system the propeller that is the one from the engine will take speed from the boat but you know me, on the one I dream about the system has a small propeller and it does not take a significant amount of speed to the boat. It is used on race boats (class 40 and Open 60). The propeller can be regulated to make more or less effort according with the wind and boat speed and you can easily take it out of the water. It makes 500w at 6K.

Regards

Paulo
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  #25  
Old 03-30-2012
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
.. but anyone know what the electrical HP equivalent is?

One kilowatt is 1.34HP. The motor is 10KW so it is 13.4HP. Of course this is actual HP at the shaft with no transmission losses or alternator drain. Since it's electric it also developed full torque at 1RPM. Torque is what moves your boat and standard diesel engines only develop full torque at one point on the RPM curve.

Considering the above, I would "guess" that the motor would perform similarly to a 18hp engine.


As for the questions about efficiency and losses that always come up with these systems, may I remind everybody that SAILING is about the most inefficient way to get anywhere? The cost of the mast, rigging, sails, running rigging, winches etc doesn't compare at all to the price of a ticket on an plane or ocean liner.

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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

Paulo,

I just want to point out that there is no such thing as free electrical energy. If you are charging the batteries, you are putting more load on the engine which means that you need to burn more fuel. This is probably slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator but it isn't free.

Medsailor,

You are correct about the hp to kw conversion. The trouble with the DC torque curve is that as the rpm goes up, the torque goes down. Also, as the rpm goes up, the load will go up. So the fact that a DC motor has infinite torque at 0 rpm doesn't do a lot of good with a normal sailboat propeller (it is great in a vehicle though) because there isn't that much load placed on the shaft. In other words, the DC electric motor has too much torque at low rpm and not enough at high rpm. Ideally, the torque curve would be pretty flat relative to rpm such as in an AC motor setup. To really dial it in, prop efficiency and hull efficiency would need to be calculated.
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by Waltthesalt View Post
So I donít, given the added system complexity and battery needs see the reason for hybrids as auxiliaries on sailboats.
For a boat with engine + generator an engine that's also your generator may not be added complexity.

These seems like a good idea for larger boats, but for my 32 footer I'd rather install a Thoosa down below and run a portable Honda 2kw generator up top. That simplifies my engine room immensely and the dino dining gennie would be easy to service and replace. Though I'd be under powered for extended cruising.

Of course when I look at a big engine I immediately think of broken knuckles, tight places, messy fluids and lots of swearing. The Honda at least I could throw over the side and pick up a new one at Home Depot or something if it really pissed me off.
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

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Originally Posted by klem View Post
Paulo,

I just want to point out that there is no such thing as free electrical energy. If you are charging the batteries, you are putting more load on the engine which means that you need to burn more fuel. This is probably slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator but it isn't free.
Yes you are right in what concerns free energy but I disagree with the "slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator".

You could be right in terms of fuel consumption but in practice it is not slightly but much more efficient and I am not only referring to fuel, but also in what refers maintenance costs and space saving.

Even in what regards fuel efficiency you don't consider a very important point: If I don't have wind and I am motoring or if I am motorsailing, with that set-up, I am charging the batteries almost for free (just a very small increase in consumption) because with a generator, motorsailing or not with a regular engine, I will have to run the generator anyway at the end of the day (assuming a significant electrical consumption, with refrigerator and AC).

Also you don't consider that while sailing the spinning propeller will be charging the batteries. Of course you pay that with some speed, but if the boat is not very light and if the wind is not weak I suspect that would not matter much to most cruises, I mean some less speed.

It is not only the fuel for the generator, but the hours of running time (maintenance) and most of all the noise and the discomfort.

All in all this seems to be a great system for someone that cruises out of marinas and has a significant electrical consumption.

Regards

Paulo
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  #29  
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauderBoy View Post
... and run a portable Honda 2kw generator up top. That simplifies my engine room immensely and the dino dining gennie would be easy to service and replace. Though I'd be under powered for extended cruising.

Of course when I look at a big engine I immediately think of broken knuckles, tight places, messy fluids and lots of swearing. The Honda at least I could throw over the side and pick up a new one at Home Depot or something if it really pissed me off.
Have a look:

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Beta Marine - New Hybrid System!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes you are right in what concerns free energy but I disagree with the "slightly more efficient than running a separate diesel generator".

You could be right in terms of fuel consumption but in practice it is not slightly but much more efficient and I am not only referring to fuel, but also in what refers maintenance costs and space saving.

Even in what regards fuel efficiency you don't consider a very important point: If I don't have wind and I am motoring or if I am motorsailing, with that set-up, I am charging the batteries almost for free (just a very small increase in consumption) because with a generator, motorsailing or not with a regular engine, I will have to run the generator anyway at the end of the day (assuming a significant electrical consumption, with refrigerator and AC).

Also you don't consider that while sailing the spinning propeller will be charging the batteries. Of course you pay that with some speed, but if the boat is not very light and if the wind is not weak I suspect that would not matter much to most cruises, I mean some less speed.

It is not only the fuel for the generator, but the hours of running time (maintenance) and most of all the noise and the discomfort.

All in all this seems to be a great system for someone that cruises out of marinas and has a significant electrical consumption.

Regards

Paulo
When I said efficient, I was referring to fuel consumption only, I agree that it is much efficient in terms of cost and maintenance to only run one engine. I still wonder why anyone would choose this option over a very large alternator if the point were only to produce electrical power. If you want to run electric only, then it obviously makes sense but if the point is to not need a separate genset, this doesn't seem like the easiest option as most people don't have 48V electric systems and it requires serious changes in the engine compartment. It is possible that some people might have space axially along the propeller shaft but not enough anywhere else for that big alternator but I would doubt that this is the norm.

For people who read the Boat US stuff, they just ran an article in Seaworthy about hybrid systems and their argument was largely based on being able to run silently for some of the time.
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