SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

no discharge zones

7K views 65 replies 26 participants last post by  Richard61 
#1 ·
with all the attention boat sewage gets from our legislators and environauts, I thought the forum would find this interesting:

Anne Arundel County Department of Health
Recreational Water Quality Alert
Anne Arundel County, Maryland
Department of Health
3 Harry Truman Parkway
Annapolis, MD 21401

EMERGENCY CLOSING FOR SECTION OF PATAPSCO RIVER IN BROOKLYN:
Department of Health Warns Against Direct Water Contact

March 26, 2012 - The Anne Arundel County Department of Health has ordered an emergency closing and warns against direct water contact for a section of the Patapsco River in Brooklyn, Maryland. The affected area includes the section of the river from Annapolis Road downstream. The closing is due to a sewage spill of more than 17 million gallons caused by a force main break at the Baltimore County Patapsco Pumping Station on March 25.

The overflow is ongoing with about 17 million gallons of sewage released daily. Baltimore County Department of Public Works has enlisted utility contractors to restore the line. Repairs are expected to be completed by Thursday. See http://www.aahealth.org/pdf/patapsco-pumping-station.pdf.

The Department of Health has posted emergency closing signs along the section of the Patapsco River, and the closure will remain in effect until further notice. People coming in contact with the affected water are advised to wash well with soap and warm water immediately. Clothing should also be washed.

I wonder hope many boats discharging sewage would it take to reach 17 million gallons a day?

steve naulty
annapolis md
ericson 35-3 "anodyne"
 
See less See more
#5 ·
Here's the math:

Maryland has about 200,000 registered boats of all kinds. Probably half of them are day use boats without holding tanks. That leaves 100,000 boats with holding tanks averaging, what, 25 gallons? If every boat in MD went up to the Patapsco and dumped, that'd be 2 1/2 million gallons. So every boat in MD would have to get together in one place and dump 7 times a day to equal this mess.

I'm all for clean water, but far too much of this country runs on the backs of the little guys.
 
#6 ·
I wonder hope many boats discharging sewage would it take to reach 17 million gallons a day?
I understand that the town is wrong to allow the sewage spill and I'm sure they are working hard to correct the problem.

I don't really understand your question. It would take a lot of boats to make that much sewage. Are you suggesting that because the town has a sewage problem that it is OK for boats to dump untreated sewage into a river?

Barry
 
#25 ·
I understand that the town is wrong to allow the sewage spill and I'm sure they are working hard to correct the problem.
The City of Baltimore has been 'dumping' raw sewage (Back Creek treatment plant - the 'main' plant) for the past 50+ years ... happens almost EVERY time there is a heavy rainstorm over Baltimore. The 'bottom' of Back Creek is now many feet deep with mostly '$#!T SLUDGE'.
Apparently there is no need for any correction as they have ..... 'sovereign immunity'.
 
#7 ·
this sort of thing happens nearly every day in some industrialized river that flows into the chesapeake. the pump out at my marina happens to go into this very sewage system, which has had 5 such multi day spills over the winter. I truly don't care about how you deal with your 'sewage', but it is the governments totally cavalier approach to gigantic municipal spills versus the "board my boat with machine guns and make sure the twisty tie is in place on my y valve and check that the placards are appropriately displayed" approach the local DEP types take to boats that fries my ass. MD needs to get its municipal and governmental house in order before fining and harassing boaters for what would be at best a 'drop in the (honey) bucket" compared to what washington, baltimore and norfolk do to the bay every day with impunity- they're too big to fail" . keep your sewage on your boat till it explodes for all I care - but don't fool yourself that your sweet 'green' thoughtfulness is 'making a difference' unless you're are the only occupant of some confined pristine harbor with no marine life that is metabolizing proteins into nitrogenous excretions.
 
#8 ·
It's not that dumping sewage is good, it's that new laws about grey water, and no discharge zones that make the extra bucks for an electrasan useless.

And the bottom line is cities dump millions of gallons a day in most of our water ways.. Even with all the boats together it would only equal a fraction of this. And fish, whales, and other animals excrement in this same water, One or two humans, or even a few hundred aren't going to make a significant difference to the enviroment.

Yet boaters get the bulk of the fines.
 
#9 ·
this sort of thing happens nearly every day in some industrialized river that flows into the chesapeake. the pump out at my marina happens to go into this very sewage system, which has had 5 such multi day spills over the winter. I truly don't care about how you deal with your 'sewage', but it is the governments totally cavalier approach to gigantic municipal spills versus the "board my boat with machine guns and make sure the twisty tie is in place on my y valve and check that the placards are appropriately displayed" approach the local DEP types take to boats that fries my ass. MD needs to get its municipal and governmental house in order before fining and harassing boaters for what would be at best a 'drop in the (honey) bucket" compared to what washington, baltimore and norfolk do to the bay every day with impunity- they're too big to fail" . keep your sewage on your boat till it explodes for all I care - but don't fool yourself that your sweet 'green' thoughtfulness is 'making a difference' unless you're are the only occupant of some confined pristine harbor with no marine life that is metabolizing proteins into nitrogenous excretions.
Like
So what are you proposing here...we all dump intp the Bay?????? Two wrongs do not make a right.

I get it we should fine the crap (sic) out of the utility????So where would you be next...standing in yelling about your utility rates going up...

I actually agree with your comments about the government and policing the spills HOWEVER there is no way I agree the solution is to leave the boaters alone and to go amuck with not controlling their waste tanks.

Barry L who commented above lives on the LI Sound where they have a much better control of both boaters waste and spuills it appears. It also seems like the people whon live there support the keeping of the waters clean much more than the boaters on the Chesapeake who choose to rail and point out all the spills rather than take responsibility for their individual part in keeping the waters clean. I have no patience for the whiners who do not take care of their own boats sewage and do not do what is LEGALLY required of them. The boaters on the LI SOUND and their communities have free pump out boats and take a much more proactive approach to this problem.

Stop whining and complaining and propose a solution to the problem. Do not link another part of the solution to the problem (boaters) as it obfuscates and dilutes the point you are making.

Dave
 
#10 ·
I'm not saying that you (emphasis you) should dump your sewage into the bay. However, I am- just re-routing it to the patapsco river by our so called "pump out" system. After fermenting it for a week or so in a 'MSD' holding tank. I'm not saying boats should dump sewage willy-nilly- great salt pond on block island is a very different place now with no-discharge than it was 20 years ago, but please, EPA just apply 'no-discharge' sensibly, and not just as a gesture to make americans feel that the authorities are doing their job- "see, they're getting those baaaad boaters under control, they must be doing a good job. Pollution is on the run!"

to reroute my sewage is fine, and I am happy to do so- but for us to proclaim that this is 'saving the bay' is folly, but proclaim it we do. I just want some attention paid and policing applied to the major polluters who get away with it because 'they would have to revise the entire baltimore sewage system"

I had to revise the sewage system on my boat multiple times, why shouldn't they? not to mention getting some real value and many construction jobs out of our tax money, rather than repeated 'studies' of the problem and paying unemployment to unfortunate people who can't find construction work.

I lived on long island sound for many years, and the only thing that 'cleaned it up' a (a rather large exaggeration- New York still dumps garbage just offshore and beaches in southern CT are covered with tampons and syringes) was the construction of modern sewage treatment plants in bridgeport, new haven, and new london, which had previously dumped sewage into the sound in amounts that daily exceeded all the conceivable boat flushes possible (see above math, but worse- those sound plants didn't do it a few times a month, like baltimore, but daily.


The enforcement of these regulations borders on the absurd. We were boarded and fined for having the "sewage placard not prominently displayed" (it was behind the companionway steps) -in a race. by so called environmental police with M-16s. It's this focus on rich boaters rather than the real polluters is what I am calling ridiculous, and if you don't think that it is, then I have no hope for you. Don't paint your boat's bottom with antifouling- fines coming. (carefully neglecting fact that fouled bottoms increase your 'carbon footprint'). Copper? take a look at the composition of salt water sometime. plenty of copper there.Has even been proposals to extract heavy metals from seawater instead of mining them.
 
#11 ·
As long as they can point sanctimonius fingers at boaters and claim that thus, they are dealing with the problem, they can , politically, continue to ignore far more serious problems, like cities, dumping exponentially greater amounts of raw sewage into the oceans, rivers and bays. By allowing ourselves to be used thus, as political scapegoats, we empower them to do what they are doing, ignoring the real source of the problem. Thus we become part of the problem, by meekly accepting the guilt trips they lay on us for political convenience. We become enablers of the abuse.
Nanaimo has been pushing on the holding tank issue, while dumping huge amounts of raw sewage into warm, shallow Georgia Strait with little in the way of current to dissipate it. Vancouver is doing the same. .
 
#12 ·
It's the typical political response to a situation - pick on a profile target so you can create the impression you are being tough about it while you avoid dealing with the real problem - that would take some work and maybe even $$$.

The amount of dog $hit washed off the streets of Vancouver into storm drains is, I daresay, many multiples of what ALL the boats in Vancouver would add in a completely uncontrolled situation.

I know how often I have taken a dump on board over the past few decades and believe me, ONE dog would add more in a week. Now, add in the bears, raccoons, coyotes etc. etc. and the laws REALLY look as stupid as they are.

No discharge in protected coves and so forth is all that is needed. Everyone I know has a holding tank and as soon as they are well out in Georgia Strait, on goes the macerator.

No problem.

The only problem areas in Vancouver that I'm aware of are Deep Cove, Sunset Beach and Eagle Harbour - their coliform counts all rise to unacceptable levels each summer and it is 100% runoff that causes it, not boats.
 
#13 ·
The amazing thing about all this is that in Maryland, sewage spills less than 10,000-gallons do not have to be reported. Yep, you would be amazed at how many 9,999-gallon spills take place throughout the state.

An observation from an old guy: When I was relatively young, just 23-years-old, boats didn't have holding tanks. You pumped the handle, the human excrement was chopped up and discharged directly into the bay. There were lots and lots of boats then, mostly concentrated in an area between Baltimore and Annapolis. This was 1963, a time when this newly married kid had a 10-year-old, 30-foot powerboat that set me back a whopping $2,500. At the time, all the public beaches were open, the water beneath the Chesapeake Bay Bridge at old piling 57 was clear enough to see bottom in 20 feet of water in October. Nestled between the bridge pilings were huge clusters of succulent oysters. All you needed to get them was a pry bar, some scuba gear, a wet suit and a burlap bag. You could fill the bag in less than 30 minutes.

Keep in mind that there were times during the summer that as many as 1,500 fishing boats clustered over the Dumping Grounds at the upper end of Kent Island where they chummed with a slick consisting of crushed and ground soft shell clams. The water never seemed to get dirty, even with all those boats chumming and pumping their poop into the bay. For some unexplained reason, Mother Nature seemed to be able to handle this with no problem.

The next part of the equation is we developed an insatiable appetite for shellfish--all kinds of shellfish. And, back then, there were essentially no regulations pertaining to harvest limits. Consequently, we rapidly wiped out every filter-feeder in the confines of Chesapeake Bay. We allowed oyster populations to be decimated, then developed hydraulic dredges that allowed total destruction of soft-shell clam, hard-shell clams, and at the same time, the dredges destroyed the bay's undersea populations of tube-worms and soft corals. Next, Atlantic menhaden became the primary target. These 12-inch fish feed on various forms of plankton and filtered huge quantities of water every day. Rumor had it that the entire water volume of Chesapeake Bay was filtered by menhaden every 7 days. Today, the decimated menhaden population would be hard put to filter the bay's water volume in a decade.

As the water quality began degrading, and dissolved oxygen levels fell, smaller filter feeders, including vegetative, also began dying off. Bay grasses are a tiny fraction of what they were in the early 1960s. In locations where there is lots of aquatic vegetation, the type of grass tends to be invasive species that blanket the water's surface, thus magnifying the problem by not allowing sunlight to reach the bottom and eliminating photosynthesis.

Lastly, what idiotic, imbecile decided that best way to get rid of human and animal waste was to dump it into the water. This, at least to me, makes absolutely no sense at all. And, to continue to fund these agencies perpetuates the idiocy of this centuries old policy. The cost of operating and maintaining the Back River Wastewater Treatment Plant is mind boggling. The biggest advancement they've made there, IMO, is the gold domes they placed over the treatment ponds, thereby allowing them to capture the methane gas and sell it for fuel. This eliminated much of the nasty odor emitted from the plant on a daily basis. For the first time in my life I am able to open the car windows while driving over the Eastern Avenue Bridge. WOW!

Now, I'm all for no discharge zones. The "Y" Valve is locked in place, and I just spent a lot of money replacing the existing valve, which was corroded to the point where it would not move. I'm against ridiculously high penalties for those who dump their gray-water into the bay, or any body of water for that matter. What comes out of the galley sink, head sink, or bilge of any sailboat during an entire season is probably equal in contamination as a single rabbit turd washing into a storm drain--big deal! If you're going to penalize the offenders, penalize them by the type and volume of effluent they allow to flow into the water. Penalizing a boater up to $10,000 for having his or her "Y" valve open, and not penalizing a municipality for a 9,999-gallon sewage spill makes no sense at all. And, the municipality that dumps 50-million gallons in the bay each year will be getting a federal subsidy of several million dollars to set up a study to determine why the spill took place at all.

Sorry about the rant. I'm gonna' mix a Margaretta and utilize my newly acquired chemical engineering skills to transform it into urine. Then I'll flush it into my 45-year-old septic system that's still in perfect condition. It's my contribution to the Chesapeake Bay Cleanup Program. Czar O'Malley, though, thinks I'm part of the problem--he just managed to shove another tax increase up my rectum by doubling the flush tax.

Just another fun day in Paradise, ;)

Gary :cool:
 
#15 ·
Oh-

Can anyone here, point me to a web link for the specific regulations for MARYLAND, regarding holding tanks, valves required, the valve line-up, and the whole zip-tie thing?

I want to make sure I'm in compliance. My boat is 39 years old and may be lacking some of the necessary equipment. I'm not discharging overboard, but I don't need any fines in case I'm boarded.
 
#17 ·
It was of some help, yes. All it said was that the Y-valve needs to be secured to prevent accidental discharge. For something that carries such a large fine, you'd think they'd be more clear about it.

I have a 5 gallon holding tank, a Y-valve, and then an overboard discharge sea-****. I can zip-tie the Y-valve to the holding tank position, but the seacock is a round, bronze body and there is no way to zip-tie the handle to the "shut" position.

Hmm.
 
#19 ·
I simply close the valves, then take the handles off and toss them in a drawer. Can't get more secure than that.
 
#21 ·
Do YOU enjoy swimming in sewage?
 
#24 ·
SJB,

Read the post to which I was responding. A_SF made no distinctions about the amount of discharge, or the distance from shore.

BTW, one CAN pump out three-plus miles from shore in SoCal (except in the Channel Islands Marine Sanctuary). So, ten miles offshore is perfectly legal (and fine as far as I'm concerned).
 
#26 ·
I am not in favor of medicated people discharging their human waste, and honestly grey water can also be a problem depending on what people decide to dump down the sink.

I don't subscribe to the "hey, they (corporation people) are doing it more than I ever could, so I might as well too"...

Would those who point at the large polluters favor much stricter regulation and oversight of these business as well (even if it meant being a "job killer"?)?
 
#32 · (Edited by Moderator)
I don't subscribe to the "hey, they (corporation people) are doing it more than I ever could, so I might as well too"...

Would those who point at the large polluters favor much stricter regulation and oversight of these business as well (even if it meant being a "job killer"?)?
You dont 'subscribe' but it still validates your very illustrative designation of a completely delusional world view ...
The 'corporations' are under severe (some would state oppressive) EPA enforcement and control. Its the MUNICIPAL entities that are the CHIEF cause of water pollution via unmaintained, broken, and leaking sewerage systems, incomplete and overwhelmed treatment systems .... and they continually get away with this CRAP because they have 'sovereign immunity'. This is the case for almost ALL 'municipals' - THEY are the 'polluters'.

(sic) "Corporations are the 'cause' of pollution" - not in this day and age 'kind sir' , its the F'ing GOVERNMENTS who dont abide and adhere to their very own EPA rules and regulations.

(yes the kind sir was inserted by tdw to replace the unacceptable.)
 
#27 ·
My boat cant discharge as the compleat Long Island Sound is a NDZ so no point BUT i have to say i am pretty sure complaince is low as there are only two hit and miss pump out boats and one fixed station for ALL the boats in Northport ,Centerport and Huntington well over 7000 boats
 
#28 ·
I can see making Long Island Sound a NDZ. It's a pretty large embayment with a relatively small opening to the sea. That must make for a limited amount of natural flushing. Kinda similar to San Francisco Bay, and San Diego Bay, on a larger scale.
 
#29 ·
A guy at pier 39 in Frisco said " There are 39 sea lions on the breakwater and docks here, each weighing around 1500 lbs. It it true that their sewage doesn't count, but mine does?"
Strong currents in the area give excellent flushing.
 
#30 ·
And there are about 300 boats at Pier 39 Marina, plus thousands of boats at other SF marinas (tens of thousands, if you include all the boats in SF Bay).
 
#34 ·
sic) "Corporations are the 'cause' of pollution" - not in this day and age Mr. Wilted-dildo-brain, its the F'ing GOVERNMENTS who dont abide and adhere to their very own EPA rules and regulations-. RichH
Is it really necessary to make this a personal attack just because he has a differing opinion? Does it make you feel better? Does it make you feel BIg and STRONG? Does it make you feel more like a Man? Ans most of all does it make you a better sailor?

Leave the personal insults out of your posts and someone may actually take what you say seriously.

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: Richard61
#35 ·
Very few of sewer's inhabitants ever complain to the mods. Today I have edited two posts re ChrisnCate and SlowbutSteady (neither of whom actually complained) because of unacceptably insulting language. I know we are all big boys and girls and can take such stuff without tears but this is a family forum.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chef2sail
#42 ·
Oh, and while we're at it, how can it be "Virgin Olive Oil" when olives are a fruit and a fruit requires fertilization? For that matter, WTF is "Extra Virgin"????????
Like
First cold pressing of olives= extra virgin less acidic than virgin
Second pressing sometimes occurs after adding hot liquid= virgin

Dave
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top