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Cruisers: what kind of trips can be made by non-bluewater boats in a weather window?

7K views 45 replies 19 participants last post by  souljour2000 
#1 · (Edited)
I would love a blue water boat, but the facts of life at this moment are that I need to be happy with what I got, and I need to be happy with it for quite a while. Even if I pursue my dream of quitting my job and going cruising in two years time, if I buy another boat (even a "10K bluewater boat" lol) then that just means I won't have any money left to go cruising, so I'd rather go with what I got than never go.

My question is, if I watch the weather carefully and ONLY go out when there is a solid window, and carry all the right safety gear, what kind of destinations are safely possible for a "coastal" production boat?

I know the western Bahamas are easily within reach if you wait for a weather window.

How about island-hopping some other parts of the Caribbean? (PR, Cuba, etc)

How about other destinations? (west coast? Gulf Coast? etc)

PS I have a 1981 Hunter 25, shoal draft fixed keel
 
#3 ·
A weather forecast is typically good for 3 days certainly...and 5 days at ok level of confidence and 7 days beyond...very low confidence. The stronger your boat, the more confidence you have to go beyond that 3 day/5 day/7 day cliff.

In your boat, I'd really look hard and strong at 3 day forecasts and not make passages if the weather forecast looks dicey in those 3 days. Remember, while it may be island hopping in the Caribbean, those tradewinds blow 20 knots+ which is a lot for your Hunter 25.

Also, there are some nasty passages in that stretch of sea. Going from Florida to Bahamas involves crossing the Gulfstream. If you take the thorny path down the islands (I doubt I see you going down "I-65"), then you'll be beating/bashing all down the coast of the Dominican Republic. That can shake bulkheads loose in hardier boats in the wrong conditions. Then, going from Dominican Republic to Puerto Rico involves crossing the Mona Passage.

Sure it can be done, but why not enjoy the many cruising grounds in the USA where your boat is perfectly suited for? Florida Keys, both coasts of Florida, Mid-Atlantic, & Great Lakes?
 
#4 ·
More to do with the level of seamanship than the boat, after all Shane Acton went around in a 18ft bilge keeler and Webb Chiles made it most of the way round in an open 18 ft boat.

Bahamas should be within your reach further East will be a slog as you have surmised but doable.
 
#6 · (Edited)
So basically, if I can get there in 3 days or less, then I can go there?

I hear ya about the 20 knot trade winds. I had my boat out this weekend in the 15-25 knot conditions we had in new York harbor and raritan bay. Even with 2 crew to help stand her up, progress beating into the swells was pretty slow. For a while we could only point almost 90 degrees off the wind, between wind shifts, gusts heeling us to 30 degrees, and the boat just dropping into the troughs killing our forward speed... In the really big drops, I could almost feel the boat shudder a tad... Is that what caribbean trade wind sailing is like? If so, I might just stay in fl ;-)

But just on the numbers, as far as non-storm conditions, what is different between my boat and, say, a cape dory 25? It has almost the same draft, a slightly lower ballast to displacement ratio, and a full keel, just on the numbers and based on the fact that a full keel typically points lower than a fin keel, would such a proven offshore boat do any better beating into a chop in heavy winds? Would any boat under 35' loa do much better?
 
#7 · (Edited)
So basically, if I can get there in 3 days or less, then I can go there?

I hear ya about the 20 knot trade winds. I had my boat out this weekend in the 15-25 knot conditions we had in new York harbor and raritan bay. Even with 2 crew to help stand her up, progress beating into the swells was pretty slow. For a while we could only point almost 90 degrees off the wind, between wind shifts, gusts heeling us to 30 degrees, and the boat just dropping into the troughs killing our forward speed... In the really big drops, I could almost feel the boat shudder a tad... Is that what caribbean trade wind sailing is like? If so, I might just stay in fl ;-)

But just on the numbers, as far as non-storm conditions, what is different between my boat and, say, a cape dory 25? It has almost the same draft, a slightly lower ballast to displacement ratio, and a full keel, just on the numbers and based on the fact that a full keel typically points lower than a fin keel, would such a proven offshore boat do any better beating into a chop in heavy winds? Would any boat under 35' loa do much better?
The full keel will track better and be sea kindlier than your Hunter, plus the Cape Dory has a better build quality that will take the pounding a lot better than the Hunter. I really think that you will only lose a few degrees of pointing ability between the two boats.

Are you asking for informational reasons, or do you have the ability to swap over to a CD 25?

I'd take the CD25 for your Island hopping any day. If you are stuck with the Hunter, then I'd learn to be satisfied with cruising the Florida keys and the Gulf Coast. There's a lot of water to be covered either way, and you won't get bored.

Edit: I see that the Hunter 25 is one of the Cherubini Hunters. Supposedly these are better than later Hunters?
 
#9 ·
I did have to re-tab the two aft starboard bulkheads that are attached to the galley/counter/step under the companionway, and while re-fitting the boat I did notice that another starboard bulkhead, under the setee, had been re-tabbed by the PO...

Not to mention that the bulkheads are not tabbed to the deck, though this is apparently common on small boats...
 
#10 · (Edited)
Over the next two years work to develop experience, knowledge, and skills you need to assess whether you'd actually enjoy "going cruising" as well as "the idea of going cruising", to form your own reasoned opinion of your boat's capabilities and suitability for the cruising you envision, to assess your capabilities in challenging conditions, and to develop confidence in your seamanship. In those two years you should thoroughly explore LIS, Narragansett Bay, and Buzzard's Bay; sail your boat for several hours in 30Kn breezes, charter the the smallest boat you can in in the Virgin Island, and sail a charter boat between two nations (e.g., Guadeloupe and Dominica).
 
#11 ·
charter the the smallest boat you can in in the Virgin Island, and sail a charter boat between two nations (e.g., Guadeloupe and Dominica).
haha you don't seem to comprehend how small my budget is...

but otherwise, sound advice thx!

I love sailing, and have been sailing for almost 3 years every single day I possibly can, I built my own small (open) sailboats in college when I couldn't afford to buy one, I love fixing boats, and when I come back long after sundown having sailed for 8 hours in 20-25 knots I don't start the motor until the last possible moment before getting into the marina... :D:D:D

it's a question of, at this early point in my career, when the future is promising (in a conventional sense) if I just stay put in my relatively comfortable job, when I have a mountain of student debt that will NEVER go away, whether I should just cast it all to the wind and follow my heart, or whether in 20 years I would truly regret that decision :confused:
 
#12 ·
If you have debt, how do you plan on paying it off?

If you don't go you will likely regret it, but that doesn't mean go off half cocked.

Brad
s/v KIVALO
 
#16 ·
I agree that while you may want to just go now and forget about everything else, you would regret ruining your credit in the future. Unfortunalty sailing is expensive, even doing it cheaply, and you will ALWAYS need to fix/buy/upgrade the boat you have. So unless you are going to have wads of cash in your pockets I wouldn't recommend closing the door of credit just yet.

That being said, you could try and make a compromise. Try to find a job where you can work from home aka work from boat. Or a job that you can do for 6-8 months of the year and make a good amount of money. ie many construction type jobs, some teaching jobs, and a myriad of online jobs or support jobs that can be done over the phone.

Just be aware if you bail on your loans that it will probably have a negative impact on many things for the rest of your life
 
#21 · (Edited)
Funny how the perspective of those without the debt is different... Yes a lot of people our age got into university with bigger loans, but that was based on the (questionable) fact that has been drilled into us since day one in elementary school. That is that without post-secondary education we'll be flipping burgers forever.
So the choices are get the loan because it's worth it for the better income you'll have with it, or don't and never make a decent wage.
Not a gun, but a decade of hearing the same message programs it in there pretty good unless you're the really contrary type.

As an example, a friend of mine finished a 5 year degree about a year ago, when he was in first year every single grad of that program landed a good job, the average paycheques were actually reasonable to live on in this city too.
When he graduated, the top 3 got hired, and the paycheques were nothing to write home about, barely enough to pay rent on a basement room somewhere, a bus pass and the loan payments.

When you are told all along that you will get a certain result in exchange for that debt you are assuming for several decades, and then the rug gets pulled out from under you and you are told you're really no better off than the ones who didn't, and in fact are worse off. Yes you sign up, and you take your lumps, but when you were told you had no choice if you wanted to create a good future, and then find out that it wasn't really as advertised, that can be a bit frustrating.

I don't have that problem, nobody in my field makes much, if I can pay off the loan and have a boat I'm happy enough. I don't expect any of that to come as a result of my degree when I'm done though. I walked in eyes open knowing it wouldn't pay off to get a degree. It was important to my parents that I get a degree, so I'm less unhappy than those who expected something to come of it, but telling people who signed up for something that's stopping them from what they want to do, possibly for life, based on a decade of false promises is a bit rough.

I second the notion of looking for work you can do from the boat, you'd be amazed at what turns up, even if it's not in your original field. I'm expecting in the next 5 years I'll be able to make the transition to making my living from the boat. Downsides are a restricted area of travel, but no commute and no car, and a lower cost of living will help even that out.
 
#25 ·
Funny how the perspective of those without the debt is different... Yes a lot of people our age got into university with bigger loans, but that was based on the (questionable) fact that has been drilled into us since day one in elementary school. That is that without post-secondary education we'll be flipping burgers forever.

...

It was important to my parents that I get a degree, so I'm less unhappy than those who expected something to come of it, but telling people who signed up for something that's stopping them from what they want to do, possibly for life, based on a decade of false promises is a bit rough.
Oh grow up! Life isn't perfect. You make your choices and then you live with them. And as bljones pointed out there are always choices (mine was 'b' btw, work ft, school pt, took me 7 years). It is definitely possible to get through college without accumulating a mountain of debt. If that's what you choose to do however, own up to it.

Also, blaming others for the choices you made and using that as a rationalization to turn your back on your responsibilities and just go do whatever the f*%# you want to is a cop out. Geez, the sense of entitlement this generation has is beyond belief.

And who says I don't have any debt? I'm currently putting one of your generation through college (a private school, no less) so debt and I are no strangers.

Oh, and while I'm at it, GET OFF MY LAWN!! ;)
 
#23 ·
I am no one to lecture you on financial stuff, but do your very best to make every effort to pay these loans back. I am lucky enough to have a boat but about 5yrs ago my business failed and the debt has been following me like the grim reaper....every effing thing I tried the debt got in the way , that included getting a better job! I decided to do the right thing, i my mind, and not file bankruptcy...hind sight, wrong decision because I would be alot further ahead today if I had, but we all live and learn. I unfortunately had to learn the hard way. Its tough out there, LIVE DEBT FREE. Only buy what you need! Living with debt sucks! Luckily on my current track I will be debt free soon, everything and everyone paid back....when I say soon, 2-3yrs. And i will then be in a position to start cruising.

Lots of great advice in other posts too. My wife and I are doing what others recommended to you. Cruising the Chesapeake, on a strict budget. I usually work side jobs prior to our planned cruise for the cash to go. Daysailing costs us almost nothing. Yes we have marina fees and that too sucks but I have to live and need a place to keep our future home.

with all this said, you are young and in a position to set yourself on the right track in life. Listen to all these guys. they dont even know you and are giving you good sound advise. These guys care more than 99% of the people out there, so do yourself a favor and listen to them.

Jason
 
#26 ·
Jones & Foolhardy, While I don't disagree with you that the decisions we make are our own and we should live with them, It's not possible to get through college without debt. Maybe not a mountain, but enough to keep you tied down for a while. It's hard to find any full time job, even at $8 an hour, so to think you can just get a job and make enough money to pay for a semseter in a reasonable amount of time is unrealistic. Average college is over 20,000 a year, so you'd have to make 30,000 a year to eat, live, and go to school. Good luck finding a 30,000 a year job with a graduate degree these days...
 
#27 · (Edited)
Wow I really didn't expect this thread to get so political...

I'll just say this in answer to some of the vitriol. I went to state schools, undergrad and graduate. I worked full time throughout both while going to school full time as well. In fact i have always had a job since i was 14 years old, and i now work about 60 hrs a week.

This idea of "working through college" isn't as easy as it may seem, or may have once been. Finding a well paying job w/out a college degree is almost not possible. U can barely make enough to live on let alone pay tuition entirely ur self. That is just how it is. I challenge u, how can u pay for college, and ESP grad school, while working full time, at say $10/hr? The math doesn't add up. I guess my generation did have a choice, we could have just not gone to college, gave up any hope of having health insurance or being in the middle class, true, We all had that choice if u want to call it one...

These kids these days are just so entitled feeling I guess, not like all u older guys who, in the old days worked hard, walking uphill both ways to work, no, unlike you this generation is clearly just lazy and entitled. Clearly... Feel better about ur self now that u expressed that opinion? We are paying for ur social security and Medicare, programs which may not be there for us, because of the colossal mismanagement of the economy by your generation. Your generation cut taxes on the rich without paying for it, mismanaged medicare and social security (programs which have worked for decades), incurred tremendous national debt, got lots of young people killed in needless wars incurring even more national debt, slashed aid to schools and investments in higher education, deferred maintenance on our crumbling infrastructure, destroyed unions and the possibility of a good job without a college degree, I can go on and on. And now you expect us to clean up your mess and accept the fact that even though we have been paying for your Safety net our whole lives we shouldn't expect to have one ourselves. But sure, you weren't lazy like ur entitled kids are, you should feel so good about yourselves...

And btw, to answer some sarcastic posters here, if u follow my posts, u will see that I picked up my boat for $1200, I have done all my own work on it (a considerable amount) and I share marina fees with two other people so, giving up this great passion wouldn't exactly get me much closer to being debt free...


Haha ok I will say no more, sorry for being on ur lawn :D
 
#31 ·
Wow I really didn't expect this thread to get so political...

I'll just say this in answer to some of the vitriol.
The vitriol isn't directed at your work ethic, or your education, or your boat... it was a reaction to your cowardice and the rationalization and justification you offer for it. You were intimating that you wanted to sail away from the debt that you incurred getting those degrees that you were smart enough to get while being stupid enough to not figure out that surprise! it was going to take you decades to pay off.
What part of term and amortization did you not understand?

Surely at some point in your 2 decades of formal education you could have said, "uh, this doesn't make fiscal sense."
But you didn't.

So, now your solution is to let us, the people who gut it out and hang in there and bust our asses to get through the tough times, carry your weight too, while you sail off?

Hey college boy, did you think that the debt suddenly goes poof if you decide not to pay?

In the real world, which you are now a part of, that debt gets paid by everybodydamnelse in the form of higher interest rates, higher insurance premiums and tighter lending restrictions.

But it won't affect you, because you will be off sailing away... wheeeeeee.

If you are working 60 hours a week and you are still broke, buy a clue- it's not your student debt that is the problem. If indeed you did work your ass off while getting your degrees and still racked up $115K in debt, you should have seen the warning signs- your money management sucks.

Isn't being a grown-up and interacting with grown-ups fun?
 
#29 ·
Jones, college is way more expensive in relation to the annual salary than in was in 1986. That's a national average fact. And again you can't make enough in a year to pay for a year of college even if you "pick up a trade" there aren't to many people are willing to hire you and teach and pay you a good wage...
 
#30 ·
I would also argue that kids shouldn't just blindly go to college these days. They should figure out what they want to do by living in the world first and then persue it. There are so many things that one can do without a college education and in many cases make more money doing it. I think trade school is way more bang for your buck!
 
#34 ·
They aren't opinions- they are conclusions based on the evidence provided. If you don't like the conclusions others draw about you, do something about it.

Thanks for giving me permission to have the last word, junior. Not that I needed it, but it says something about your opinion of yourself and your place in the world that you offered it.

Rookie, if you don't want people to take shots at you, don't wear a bullseye, and don't hand them fresh ammo.

You're really new at this adult stuff, ain't you?



btw, can somebody please get this thread back on topic?
 
#38 ·
btw, can somebody please get this thread back on topic?
OK, I'll bite...

What's a "Weather Window"? One of those clear things the weatherguessers rarely seem to look through to see what's going on outside, perhaps?

Chris Parker is about as good as there is when it comes to forecasting East coast/Western North Atlantic marine weather... Late last week, he gave the green light to cruisers heading north along the SE coast, and all the forecast models and prognostications seemed to agree... Fairly benign SW flow, interrupted by "a series of weak reinforcing dry cold fronts" - in other words, a bit of "frustrating" sailing conditions as winds clocked thru 360 degrees with the passage of these fronts, but no big deal... No squalls associated with these passages, winds in the 15-20 knot range, max, and the breeze retuning to light to moderate SW quickly thereafter...

I ran out of Sapelo Sound late Sunday morning, beautiful sailing wing & wing thru the afternoon... By the time Bubba Watson was putting on his very well deserved Green Jacket Sunday night, the breeze was a steady 25, and the seas had built quickly, in the steep confusion typically found in the shoal waters off the Georgia/S Carolina coast...

The first of these "Weak reinforcing fronts" came thru early Monday morning, and offered some decent, if not pretty sporty sailing, for as long as it blew NW... Well, that lasted for about an hour... Then it came straight NE, at a solid 25-30... Seas now built quickly in an opposition train to what had developed overnight out of the SW, and to describe the conditions as a washing machine would still be an understatement...

I was about 15 miles off Charleston, making little towards my destination on either tack, and getting beat up pretty good in the bargain. So, I parked it for about 6 hours, got some rest, and resumed sailing when it came SE, and then SW… By the time I approached Frying Pan Shoals yesterday morning, it had been blowing pretty good all night, and the seas were up once again… Another front came thru, wind came NW, then died… motored for about an hour, wind building again from the SW, quickly back up to 25…

By the time I approached Beaufort Inlet about 2300, conditions had gotten pretty sporty, breeze pretty steady between 25-30… Good news was, I was arriving on a flood tide, I don't even want to think what the seas there would have been like on the ebb… Bad news was, I was arriving at precisely the passage of yet another of these "weak reinforcing cold fronts"… This one did contain squall activity, lots of lightning off to the NW, and occasional gusts to 40… I poured myself a VERY tall Manhattan after the hook went down off Beaufort just after midnight, and I've spent a good part of the day today putting the boat back together, and licking my wounds… The crew of a Hylas 49 that arrived shortly before me sounded fairly shaken by their ordeal, and I expect the guy might have some trouble convincing his wife the next time around, to jump outside again on the promise of a good "Weather Window"…

Two points to all this… first, the notion of a weather window is merely a concept, nothing more… I and others were simply making a coastal passage, never more than about 30 miles offshore… But, I'm sure glad I didn't have to deal with either the conditions I encountered off Charleston on Monday, or approaching Beaufort last night, in a boat like a Hunter 25…

Sure, you can go places with that boat, no doubt about it… But I'd suggest as a general rule of thumb, you'd want to stay within sight of land… The exception might be crossing over to the Bahamas, that could certainly be doable… I think TQA has it exactly right, venturing much beyond the Bahamas in such a boat, probably not a very good idea…

Only one way to find out, of course - get out there and give it a whirl , and ultimately make your OWN decision as to the suitability of your boat for what you have in mind…
 
#35 ·
Getting back to the topic.

I think the OP mentioned somewhere that they have a Hunter 25 which I believe has an outboard auxiliary. This means that you will not be able to motor sail when conditions get lumpy as the the prop will be out of the water half the time.

Bahamas would be easy just take your time and pick a good weather window but make sure you have the charts for the inlets if you have to bale out back to Florida.

Dry Tortugas to would be OK.

But I think that would be as far as I would go unless you want to circumnavigate on the milk run. However you would run the pirate risk just now so maybe that is out.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Great Post as usual Jon...
In a Hunter 25...I would only do Bahamas or Tortugas or small jumps after May or so...over-niters though... and be somewhere protected by 1pm or so the next day....
By mid-May,. South Florida/Bahamas is fairly free of strong Northerly winds from cold fronts and strong SW flows that arrive before them...and by late May the area is nearing the season where you'll see puffy little clouds in the mornings building into afternoon t-storms. Wth a late evening departure after 10 pm the night before (after the t-storm threat is over) from a place like N Key Largo...you could make the 44 miles overnite to say...Bimini...and be anchored in Bimini with some protection by early afternoon "T-time"... a.k.a thunderstorm-time...just some thoughts...but getting a solid base of coastal experience before heading offshore is invaluable....and IMHO recommended highly if you haven't already...
 
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#41 ·
The one that ran aground? :):):)



Internal ballast, leaky wooden construction, nothing close to a flush deck, not much of a keel and nothing like an effectively shaped rudder, no drogue or sea anchor invented yet...

Those guys had cohones man...

and a very high percentage never came back...
 
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