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post #21 of 51 Old 03-29-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

3' of drop! I wish! 16' is while not common, reasonably common enough to say common in the salish sea in some area's! Still, I would take a deep fin vs a shallow fin/wing style. Or as mentioned, a CB style way before the shallow fixed if I need to get into skinny water. Then again, where I sail less than 1/2 to 1 mile off shore, one see's 3 dash's on the depth guage, meaning beyond 600'...........does one really think 2' of lesser sailing ability is worth it at this point!

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post #22 of 51 Old 03-29-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

Marty,
What was worth it to me was the ability to keep the boat at the dock at our house. I could be at a marina with plenty of depth and probably only 15 minutes away, but here I work on the boat and sail it more often. Plus the dock fee's go into the boat maintenance kitty!


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post #23 of 51 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

A deep draft keel outperforms a shoal draft keel right up to the point the deep draft keel hits the bottom, and the shoal draft keel keeps going.

I have a shoal draft keel (fin) and I would love to have the deeper draft version for better performance. But, where I sail most of the time, it just isn't an option.

It's too bad centerboard boats aren't more popular and the designs didn't keep improving. Best of both worlds if done correctly.
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post #24 of 51 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

Ron,

Inyour shoes, I would take what you choose too, and for the VERY same reasons mind you! The 3' of tide change is pretty small all thing considering. THen again, on lk washington where I grew up sailing on, there was 2-3' between the winter and summer height. lower in the winter than summer. so some places became rather shallow, others not really.

At the end of the day, one much choose a keel type on the where they will sail, store etc. The best all around from the shoal to deep, is a cb, then a fin to a will not buy a shoal/wing for how I sail per say.

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post #25 of 51 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

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Originally Posted by Group9 View Post
A deep draft keel outperforms a shoal draft keel right up to the point the deep draft keel hits the bottom, and the shoal draft keel keeps going.

I have a shoal draft keel (fin) and I would love to have the deeper draft version for better performance. But, where I sail most of the time, it just isn't an option.

It's too bad centerboard boats aren't more popular and the designs didn't keep improving. Best of both worlds if done correctly.
I agree with what you say except that the designs don't keep improving. This was the bigger improvement of the last decades in what regards boats with variable draft and swallow draft, a concept that was previously developed along the years by Finot and that now is used in many boats.



The keel is ballasted, it provides not only a big draft when down as a a very low CG. It permits very good sailor performance to boats capable of having a mooring in very shallow waters, something that was not possible before, except with much more complicated and expensive bulbed lifting keels.

Regards

Paulo


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post #26 of 51 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

The Clearwater model design came out of the late 80's. They only made 7 of the 35' versions (there was a larger version as well 46', I think)



The keel is several thousand pounds of lead and is designed like a wing. The rudder also kicks up and can be manipulated with lines under the captain seat.



She points fairly well, but I am not much of a racer, the original owner was.

The drawback is that the salon is divided by the cabinet that houses the keel when it swings up. There is still seating for 6:



(excuse the mess, I was working on the electrical system when this was taken)

Just less convenient than conventional. But for the 2 of us there is plenty of room.

Ron
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

Ron,

Even my boat with a deep keel for its size, has the table running down the middle, so a CB truck would really not interfer per say! SO reality is, at the end of the day, as said before, correct keel for the task you have at hand, along with interior floorplan to suit your needs, is the correct boat for you.

I know of a person on the east coast with my boat but the CB version, rated a bit slower, but not enough to throw it out of the ball game from a which boat would I buy game. There is not a wing/shoal keel version to know how much slower it would be. but my guess is since the CB is 10sec or so slower, the wing probably another 10-20 secs on a 189 based boat.

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post #28 of 51 Old 03-30-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

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Originally Posted by CapnRon47 View Post
The Clearwater model design came out of the late 80's. They only made 7 of the 35' versions (there was a larger version as well 46', I think)



The keel is several thousand pounds of lead and is designed like a wing. The rudder also kicks up and can be manipulated with lines under the captain seat.



She points fairly well, but I am not much of a racer, the original owner was.

The drawback is that the salon is divided by the cabinet that houses the keel when it swings up. There is still seating for 6:



(excuse the mess, I was working on the electrical system when this was taken)

Just less convenient than conventional. But for the 2 of us there is plenty of room.

Ron
The Clearwater 35 is a great design, ahead of its time, but it is not the same concept as the one that I was talking about. The boat shares the same concept with Southerlies (that has been using it since 1978), that has about half the ballast in the bilge, half the ballast on the keel.

Southerly 110

The concept I was talking about and that is a recent one, it is about boats with a Swing keel with all ballast on the keel. Those keels have not only a much bigger draft compared with the Clearwater/Southerly concept (About 3m to about 2m) as they have also a bigger volume on their deepest part.

The Bigger draft, the all ballast down on the keel gives to this concept an incomparably much bigger RM for a given weight of ballast, allowing these boats to have a lot of power and stability for a reduced weight of ballast.

Finot has worked on this concept since the 70's,



till the actual formulation, that is used by several designers with very small alterations.

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 03-30-2013 at 11:08 PM.
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post #29 of 51 Old 03-31-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

I've also got a Clearwater 35 like Ron's. According to the builder, I've got 5500 lbs of lead ballast, half of which is inside the leading edge of the NACA foil shaped swing keel. The other half is glassed into the very slack bilge. My displacement is 12500 lbs, according to the rating folks (who also rated Heron). That would make the displacement to ballast ratio 0.44.

The Clearwater will go to weather with the best of them and stay on her feet at the same time. When beating, I will rarely heel more than 20 degrees--much less, say than a Bristol 35.5.

My point is that the ballast arrangement, along with form stability, seems to work very well in the Clearwater. The narrow cabin and inboard chainplates allows for tight sheeting angles, which also helps. The underbody looks very much like the Southerly design, although we only have a single, deeper draft rudder (which also swings to allow a minimum 1' 10" draft).

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post #30 of 51 Old 03-31-2013
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Re: shoal draft keel vs regular keel

Sourthelies are great cruisers and by what I have heard from you and other owners the Clearwater 35 too. I don't intend to deny that (quite the opposite) just pointing out that the new development of swing keels (with deep draft and all ballast on the keel) permits to have not only good cruisers but performance cruisers too. Several members have those kind of boats and they permit planning with some ease at two figure speeds.

They are not used only on small boats anymore (they started to be used many years ago on the smaller First) but also huge yachts are starting to use them instead of more complicated and expensive lifting keels.

Regards

Paulo


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